lee metford wanted

[smle13]

after i got the smle 1909 I am undecided about wether to get an LSA 1911 all matching with cut off and volley sights or a lee metford mod 1888 witch I cant seem to find?

Thanks!!

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[Fred G.]

Yep, the early unaltered Lee Metfords, with the metford rifleing, are tough to find. IMA had about 20 or so that they sold off for about $2400.00 apiece just recently. They were returned to IMA from England where they'd been sold with a quantity of others to a gun dealer who was deactivating and selling them. The 20 or so rifles hadn't been deactivated yet and the dealer was going out of business and IMA bought them back and sold them here. Although they all sold, I'm wondering if a Metford rifle would commonly sell for $2400.00 here. Are they that rare now? I too would like to get my hands on one. One DID surface on Gunbroker about a year and a half ago or so that sold for about $1500.00. It was pretty nice. I haven't seen any since though. Good luck in your search! Fred

[Jc5]

....to a gun dealer who was deactivating and selling them.

What a**hole was doing that? Shame on the "collectors" who support this sort of thing! And shame on IMA for selling these rifles to deactivators! Any statement from IMA in defense of this policy? Why wasn't the whole lot sold to real collectors and shooters where they would not be mutilated?

If we can turn up heat on those who traffic in deacts---by which I mean making them feel unwelcome in the gun community and NOT supporting them---then maybe this sort of thing will stop. If these fake collectors want deacts, they need to petition Airsoft to make them up some die-cast toys they can hang on the wall or pull out to shoot bad guys on the TV set.

Sorry for the rant, but this sort of thing NEEDS to become disreputable. If the gun community doesn't make an effort on this, no one else will care.

[Brian Dick]

I understand your sentiments but deacts aren't going away in England and elsewhere because there's a huge market for them and they sell for pretty good money. I saw a load of weapons imported into England from South Africa last year by Worthing Guns including some Lee Metfords. Many were in very poor condition but mostly all there. I had to wrap my mind around it but the fact is that they weren't fit to be shooters anymore and at least they still retain some historical significance for display, study and conversation. Otherwise, they'd probably wind up melted into manhole covers and gone forever. Food for thought.

[Jc5]

I could understand if the choice were only between 1) being deactivated, or 2) being melted down. But was there no third choice? That is, selling them to collectors in the United States or elsewhere who would not deactivate them? How much would real collectors have paid for those Worthing guns? If deacts sell for XX amount, then real collectors need to match that price, and ALSO inform companies like Worthing Guns that we will boycott all their products until they cease trafficking in ivory, rhino horn, blood diamonds, tiger balls, and Lee Metfords! If those companies are only concerned about money, then we need to make it unprofitable to them.

If money talks, then the gun community needs to step up. And on the social side, anyone purchasing a deact should be shamed for the enabler they are. Just curious, did IMA get a better price per rifle from the deactivator or from the US buyers who paid $2400? If so, how much better? What kind of a markup are we talking here? A lot of real collectors might pay a few extra hundred in order to save a rifle from going to the dogs.

[Alan de Enfield]

Because of the draconian gun laws in the Uk its 'not easy' to own a 'live' weapon.

De-acts tend to fetch higher prices than live wepons with a de-act No4 typically fetching £400 (US$600)
and de-act 'Long Lees' around US$1600 - click the link :

Deactivated Rare WWI Military Long Lee Rifle - Allied Deactivated Guns - Deactivated Guns

[Jc5]

Thanks for the link Alan. There are plenty of folks here in the states who would pay $1600 for a nice Long Lee. Those rifles should have gone into hands that would care for them and pass them on to the next generation. Maybe I'm being too puritanical about this, but it upsets me to see, for example, the 1890 MLM I* that Arundel is selling. They have the gall to call it "an extremely desirable collectors rifle"...yes, it would be, if someone had not RUINED it.

The price difference is a bit higher on deacts then. I just wish real collectors would make up the difference so that outfits like Arundel would find it just as profitable to sell them unmodified. Also, is it too much to ask buyers of deacts to be a little less selfish? They are the ones driving the market for ruined guns. If they could do without a non-shooting showpiece (and settle for an equivalent toy, as I suggested above), then the rifles would be preserved for the day when all people have their rights restored (it may yet come, over some distant horizon). Too idealistic? Maybe.

With all the vitriol spewed on Bubba and his hacksaw, at least two things can be said of him: 1) when he chopped the fore-end to turn that SMLE MkI into a deer rifle, he was working from a pile of cheap, plentiful imports that he had no reason to suspect would be valuable someday; 2) in some cases, his handiwork can be undone and the rifle restored to its original specs. The same cannot be said for the deactivators---they are fully aware of the rarity and collectibility of the items they are ruining. They are exploiting the unhappy condition of many gun enthusiasts worldwide who must live under harsh anti-laws guns. Despicable.

And the buyers? What goes through their minds? To be fair, I sympathize with them. I live in California, where we suffer from bad gun laws---not as bad as the UK, but far worse than the other states. But I wouldn't commission the mutilation of a rare firearm just so I could import it, and then ... do what with it exactly? Hang it on the wall? Show it off with "pride"? A toy or a big wall poster would do just as well. This is just selfishness. Through his direct financial support of the deactivation market, this buyer has ensured that another collector can never own that rifle in its original condition, nor can his descendants. Ruined for all time, so he can show it off. Anti-hunting types might say the same thing about a trophy rhino's head on the wall. ("Did you have to kill it in order to appreciate it?") The difference, however (PETA vs. hunting arguments aside) is that rhinos can breed more rhinos (theoretically), but Lee Metfords don't breed Lee Metfords (alas!), and they're not making any more of them.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread with my little rant, but the deacts are a contributing factor to why the Original Poster finds it difficult to find a Lee Metford. Not the main factor, but a contributing factor. That ruined 1890 Sparkbrook that Arundel is hawking would have been just what the fellow is looking for.

[bigduke6]

Another one for the chop, talking to a mate before he says he just spoke to a dealer (UK), who has sent a nice Lee Enfield Mk 1, 1897 sparkbrook to be deactivated, price is £1200 if you want to save it, PM me and i will give you the details.
A bit out of my price range to save, unless my numbers come up tonight, I tend to save £50 specials from the scrap heap, in fact i,m heading to the workshop in the next hour to knock up a barrel.

[Brit plumber]

Its not just the UK who have deac guns, the USA are as guilty, how many Thompson 1928s have been chopped, how many Buffalo 1919A4s have been chopped to be rebuilt into semi, how many 1917 and 1917A1s have been chopped? You also mention that a collector should get a toy instead of a deac, many collectors do have replicas, but unfortunatly in the UK the law now states that it isn't good enough to be a collector to own a 'Toy' or replica. You need to justify by being a reenactor and member of a recognised reenacting group (The UK has lost its way with gun laws now).

I'm a Bren collector and a number of years back a Bren body dated 37 had been chopped for the US market, again, that individual should have been shot, but a collector in the US will have that body in his collection now, so I shouldn't complain, it will bring joy to that individual for a long time to come.

I can understand the frustration but unfortunatly the world is heading away from being gun freindly and I can see a future where even the current gun liberal countries like the USA losing their right to bare arms, maybe not in our life time but its always going to be there.

[Brian Dick]

The torch cut receivers for the US market are done to gov't specification or they can't be imported at all. I always thought the British and Canadian deacts were so much better because at least the receivers were intact. Many MG kits were imported to the USA with saw cut receivers until BATFE got wise and started requiring three torch cuts losing .25" of metal with each. The guys over here building semi-auto and post sample Brens try hard to find the old saw cut kits as they are much better candidates for rewelding. Currently, it isn't legal to import any military breech blocks, bolts or barrels. The feedback from the ATF-DOS-DOC import/export conference this month in Washington, DC isn't good either for the ban ever being recinded, especially with the current administration and attorney general. No surprise there I guess.