reloading 303.

[Rick]

no4mk1shooter

On a non-rimmed cartridge case like the .308 being fire formed for the longer chamber of the 7.62 NATO you had two choices.

1. When reloading you would seat your bullet "long" so it would touch the rifling and hold the case against the bolt face.
2. Make a false shoulder on the case neck or enlarging the neck of the case so it held the case against the bolt face.


Now here are some problems with the two methods of fire forming I listed above.

1. On the majority of used Enfield Rifles, the throat is too long and you can not seat bullets out long enough to touch the rifling.
2. Creating a false shoulder can lead to and cause cracked necks due to the amount the necks are enlarged. (over working the brass)

Ed, can you relate your experiences where creating a false shoulder one time to create brass that is both centered in the chamber and properly sized after firing led to the cracked necks you are talking about?

I have been creating false shoulders on .303 brass for years, stretching back to well before the WWW ever existed. Read George Nonte originally describing the technique, if memory serves me correctly.

I can't recall every having cracked necks as a result of using the false shoulder technique, nor can I recall George Nonte ever writing of similar problems - granted, he has been gone from the range for some time now.

I am curious that you experienced cracked case necks after creating a false shoulder while I haven't, and wonder what you might be doing differently than me that I want to make sure I stay away from.

I intend to use the o-ring method the next time I do some brass in lieu of the tape method at the rear in conjunction with a false shoulder. I am not sure that an o-ring guarantees a case centered in the chamber in addition to keeping the base of the case against the bolt head. I am also not sure that the majority of rifles would actually show a difference one way or the other, however.

If I had some spare time, I would buy a few hundred new cases and explore the differences between all three, because I do have a pretty accurate No. 4 to play around with.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Edward Horton]

Rick

On American made Winchester and Remington cases the shoulder of the case let alone the neck of the case is over a 1/4 inch from where it belongs on the military Enfield rifle.



If you noticed Optimists first case failure was a cracked neck on his destruction test of his .303 cases. Why would I want to stress the necks even more by forming a false shoulder. Why would I want to go to all the trouble of wrapping masking tape around the base of the case when all I have to do is slip a o-ring around the case and be done with it.

Rick if you like your time consuming method of fire forming cases better then by all means use it, If you can prove the o-ring doesn't hold the case against the bolt face then please prove it. If you can prove the o-ring doesn't center the rear of the case in the chamber then please prove it.

What you do NOT understand is WHY I'm pushing the o-ring method of fire forming cases, the reason is simple. We have people telling us that we should grease or lube our cases to fire form them and this creates MORE bolt thrust and excess bolt thrust can damage any rifle.

In 1929 the British military told us to not lube our cases and keep the chamber oil free.





In 2008 the United States Military told us to NOT lube our cartridge cases.





Rick, we have an American moderator in another forum telling everyone that the British, Canadians and Australians can't make an Enfield rifle with a centered chamber. (Honest to God) The reason he states this is because his cases are warped and banana shaped. The reason these American cases are warped and banana shaped is because the rear of American cases have smaller base diameters than "foreign" made cases, and they are NOT centered in the rear of the chamber when fired.

The second reason these American .303 cases are warped and banana shaped is because they are not made to military standards like the Prvi Partizan cases are. These European CIP cases are over .010 thicker than American made .303 ammunition and I would rate them just as good if not better than American Lake City Match cases.

Below is one of my warped banana shaped "American" cases fired in one of my Enfield Rifles. I do NOT blame the British Enfield rifle for this, I blame our American made SAAMI cases that do not fit the military Enfield chamber.



In closing Rick this is a British Enfield forum and I don't feel the need to talk about long dead American gun writers who didn't give a rats A$$ about the Enfield rifle. I like to keep things simple (KISS) and false shoulders and masking tape is not on my agenda. ANYONE can slip an o-ring around a case and fire factory loaded ammunition or to fire form cases. I also don't see the need to over complicate the matter by adding "false shoulders" and masking tape to the issue.

What I have said here Rick is my opinion about the rubber o-ring method of fire forming cases that was posted by a Canadian at the old Jouster Enfield forum and I see NO reason to change it. To each his own, it works for me





You set your sight for 400 yards with these pistol bullet reduced loads for fire forming your cases.
You pull the trigger and wait....................................

to hear the bullet hit the target at 100 yards



Now WHY would I want to mess with a good thing?

[chevy1981enfield1943]

Rick

On American made Winchester and Remington cases the shoulder of the case let alone the neck of the case is over a 1/4 inch from where it belongs on the military Enfield rifle.



If you noticed Optimists first case failure was a cracked neck on his destruction test of his .303 cases. Why would I want to stress the necks even more by forming a false shoulder. Why would I want to go to all the trouble of wrapping masking tape around the base of the case when all I have to do is slip a o-ring around the case and be done with it.

Rick if you like your time consuming method of fire forming cases better then by all means use it, If you can prove the o-ring doesn't hold the case against the bolt face then please prove it. If you can prove the o-ring doesn't center the rear of the case in the chamber then please prove it.

What you do NOT understand is WHY I'm pushing the o-ring method of fire forming cases, the reason is simple. We have people telling us that we should grease or lube our cases to fire form them and this creates MORE bolt thrust and excess bolt thrust can damage any rifle.

In 1929 the British military told us to not lube our cases and keep the chamber oil free.





In 2008 the United States Military told us to NOT lube our cartridge cases.





Rick, we have an American moderator in another forum telling everyone that the British, Canadians and Australians can't make an Enfield rifle with a centered chamber. (Honest to God) The reason he states this is because his cases are warped and banana shaped. The reason these American cases are warped and banana shaped is because the rear of American cases have smaller base diameters than "foreign" made cases, and they are NOT centered in the rear of the chamber when fired.

The second reason these American .303 cases are warped and banana shaped is because they are not made to military standards like the Prvi Partizan cases are. These European CIP cases are over .010 thicker than American made .303 ammunition and I would rate them just as good if not better than American Lake City Match cases.

Below is one of my warped banana shaped "American" cases fired in one of my Enfield Rifles. I do NOT blame the British Enfield rifle for this, I blame our American made SAAMI cases that do not fit the military Enfield chamber.



In closing Rick this is a British Enfield forum and I don't feel the need to talk about long dead American gun writers who didn't give a rats A$$ about the Enfield rifle. I like to keep things simple (KISS) and false shoulders and masking tape is not on my agenda. ANYONE can slip an o-ring around a case and fire factory loaded ammunition or to fire form cases. I also don't see the need to over complicate the matter by adding "false shoulders" and masking tape to the issue.

What I have said here Rick is my opinion about the rubber o-ring method of fire forming cases that was posted by a Canadian at the old Jouster Enfield forum and I see NO reason to change it. To each his own, it works for me





You set your sight for 400 yards with these pistol bullet reduced loads for fire forming your cases.
You pull the trigger and wait....................................

to hear the bullet hit the target at 100 yards



Now WHY would I want to mess with a good thing?

any chance tis load could put down a Pennsylvania white tail at 100-200 yards?