Caution: Questionable M1917's

[Cass]

I hate to keep harping on this, but oldguns.net continues to list M1917's that are questionable at best. Anyone who buys from them should use extreme caution.

Here are the latest:

SMOF5360 - (*5377*) EXCELLENT U.S. RIFLE MODEL 1917 MADE BY WINCHESTER SERIAL NUMBER 119441 MANUFACTURED JANUARY 1918. CALIBER 30-06 BARREL DATE 1-18. ALL MATCHING. ....

This is handsome Winchester Model 1917. It is not one of the rifles that was reworked and it still has the original bluing on the barrel and receiver which would rate over 97% with just a little fading. The bore is bright with strong lands and grooves. The stock is Winchester marked as are the bolt and ALL of the small parts. Winchester M1917 rifles are the most desirable of the Model 1917s. Rifles with original finish like this one has are rare and even more desirable. We suspect that this is an old DCM sales gun from the 1940s-1950s, but cannot document it. If you are looking for a well above average example of a Winchester M1917 rifle, this is an excellent choice. $1295.00 (View Picture)



The finish is definitely not "original finish" and the rifle appears to have been restored and had a blued finish applied over the rougher finish that it received during a previous rebuild.

Here is another:

SMOF5332 - EXCELLENT! ALL MATCHING U.S. RIFLE MODEL 1917 MADE BY EDDYSTONE SERIAL NUMBER 614171 BARREL DATE 4-18. ......

This rifle was made in the summer of 1918 at the Eddystone plant in Pennsylvania. It has ALL correct Eddystone parts and it retains about 95% of its bluing. The barrel is bright with excellent riflings. The walnut stock is the correct Eddystone stock and has a few storage dings, but no major cracks or gouges. $950.00 (View Picture)

Information

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[Surpmil]

P.T. Barnum price guide as well I see!

I wouldn't say the Winchesters were better than the Remingtons. It is pointed out in "The US Enfield" by Skennerton that the AEF in WWI asked that no more Winchester rifles be sent to France due to non-standard components being used.

Of course there might have been some politics/nepotism/corruption involved in that as per the Chauchat/Lewis Gun saga.

[mike16]

a little pricey but whats questionable about them?

[Cass]

a little pricey but whats questionable about them?

The finish on them is nothing like the original blued finish they claim to be. They appear to be examples that went through a rebuild and received a parkerized finish, then have been restored back with a newer type blued finish.

[mike16]

Two issues and From a fng...

First I made the mistake of assuming my december 1918 eddystone m1017 was blued until I read Ferris's book and realised that there were shades of parkerizing and textures of parkerising that could confuse the uninitiated including my self. Pics can be deceptive so, after looking closely at these pictures and having read Farris's book and knowing the mistakes I made I would humbly recommend that we take a closer and longer look at those pictures of old blued rifles.

also having read Ferris's book. winchester rifles WERE used overseas and distribution was limited to those manufactured after Jan 1918. The issue of non standard parts being used only applies to parts manufactured by Winchester befor eddy, remington and winchester all agreed on standardisation. the real problem there was not that the three manufacturers did or did not agree on standardised dimentions. it was the Dept of the army that either could not agree or did not do so in a timely fashion. Ferris's book is pretty interesting in this respect. The politics might be that winchester was loosing money while thier employees stood around for months at a time waiting for Dept of Army to make a choice. They put thier employees to work, produced rifles and while every body else was still standing around the news papers got hold of the scandal and made the army look bad. The politics was that Winchester got punished and in spite of thier effort lost millions.

Ferris's book in a must read.

They are pricey but look very nice. If I had the money they would be on the throne in my gun safe.

[Cass]

Mike, Nick's book is indeed a good one.

Here is a picture of what the original finish actually looks like on a Winchester is that serial range. Notice how the blue has an almost translucent appearance and how the metal is highly polished under the finish. Also notice the appearance of the stamps and the area around them.

[Aragorn243]

I can't say that I know this to be correct but I believe I read somewhere that during the arsenal rebuilds the metal was sandblasted or something similar to that which removed all traces of rust and/or the old finish prior to being re-finished. This is what gives the metal the rougher texture and reduces the clarity of the stampings.

If that is the case, it would appear that both rifles in the first post went through the re-finishing process.

[mike16]

it seems that they may be wrong. I have made the same mistake with equal enthusiasm. the winchester is a bit over priced but they always seem to weather its an M1917 an M1 carbine or Rifle. I actualy held my rifle in my hand and...with all my presumed knowlege stated that it was blued.I was wrong. I can understand where someone else would as well.

[chevy1981enfield1943]

gawd, for that price one could buy two very nice models from gunbroker lol