Historical Enfield Question

[Terry Hawker]

smellie,

As far as subtracting the number of rifles from the number of men brought from France, I can account for the discrepancy by at least two units and show why this method of accounting is probably not too accurate.

Two of my uncles were evacuated from Dunkirk...One a Captain in the Royal Engineers and the other a bandsman. As the first would have been armed with a revolver, while the other, being assigned to ambulance and stretcher bearer duties, thus rather busy at the time, probably wouldn't have been armed with a rifle either. Obviously there were many other service personnel not issued rifles, so to assume each man getting back without one represents one rifle left on the beach, seems a bit of a stretch.

Don't remember at the moment where I read it, so will have to do a bit of research, but, I do remember at least one account of the evacuation stating that most men did bring their small arms back with them.

Terry

[Kev G]

David Boyd has a very good website that gives info on UK stocks of weapons after the 'battle of France' here.
Figures are from the Ministry of Supply of stock held in the UK.

To add to the info given on the website in June 145,984 rifles (all types) underwent repair,9,887 new NoI MKs III and III* were delivered and 75,000 Ross rifles were delivered to UK stock.(plus 4,544 Thompson smg's)
In July, 28,764 repaired rifles,11,222 new NoI MKs III and III*s,and 8,760 Thompson smgs.
August, 10,593 rifles repair,18,919 new NoI MKs III and III*s, and 20,800 Thompson smgs.

Hope this gives a flavour to the situation

A similar thread on Brens - Bren gun figures 1940 and the fall of France

ATB Kevin

[P-07ShortLee]

This has been an interesting topic,

Kev G's list of new No.1 MK III's would most likely be "Dispersal" rifles? Or were some new production from Lithgow and Ishapore?

[Kev G]

Or were some new production from Lithgow and Ishapore?

In Junes MoS report it only mentions "a small steady supply is coming from Australian production"

ATB Kevin

[Kev G]

Also-- the new book by Max Hastings "Winston's War" states there were only 75,000 rifles and 3000 BREN guns (if I remember correctly) available for issue in the immediate aftermath of the debacle in France

Does Hastings cite his primary source for the figures ?

ATB Kevin

[barbarossa]

Kev, borrowed the book from the local library and I do not recall if it was cited. However, Hastings has a track record for accurate nonfiction and accessed many of Churchill's personal papers from the era in the writing of the book.

I'm no professional and I'm certain Laidler might have a better handle on this but will say that there is a distinct difference between rifles being repaired and hence out of service and not on issue and those which can be counted as ready for issue or on issue. Whatever, the situation in June 1940 was pretty dire with lots of lost equipment that could not be quickly replaced and wartime production had not really started to gin up just yet. Think about whatcha got going on at that moment in time--RSAF is basically out of the rifle making business, the No.4 rifle is still a pipe dream not yet in production for another year and BSA is piddling along making a few thousand rifles a month. In June 1940, the BSA plant hadn't even been bombed yet and the beginning of the Blitz was two months away.

Yeah, there was a serious small arms shortfall in summer 1940 alright. Let's not lose sight of the fact that, as the above quoted table bear out, there was equipment for 27 divisions to defend the Home Island. Not a single rifle left in war reserve to arm anyone else. Where are the requisite reserve arms or new made equipment to arm the Commonwealth forces already being raised for wartime service?

Basically, it all boils down to one thing--in June 1940, there simply was no quick way to make up for the small arms lost in France. A most untenable situation!

Regards

Jerald Stamps

[Thunderbox]

I haven't yet seen Hasting's book, but the figure of 70,000 rifles available in UK is orders of magnitude out - thats most likely just his repeat of estimated losses in France. I'm not sure Hastings has done any specific research about Dunkirk - he tends to use "standard facts" to pad around his core book theme. Most of the cutting edge "new" research with regard to small arms is actually done by enthusiasts known to these forums.

The gross numbers of rifles in UK hadn't changed significantly over the inter-war period:

There were about 2.2 million No1s in store after WW1, and these numbers would have been reduced slightly by the 1920s refurbishments and distributions around the Empire and client states (although the Dominions would have already been fully armed following WW1). There were probably about 1.25 to 1.5 million No1s in UK at the outbreak of war.

A further 700,000 P14s were reported in store in the late 1930s with respect to a proposed conversion project (another c.400,000 P14s not accounted for, some gone in overseas aid, some probably in depots but not covered in this particular report).

There is some evidence that "backloading of stores from France had occurred well ahead of the subsequent evacuations.



Churchill war report to the Commons 4th June 1940:

(We shall fight on the beaches, etc")

"Already the flow of munitions has leapt forward. There is no reason why we should not in a few months overtake the sudden and serious loss that has come upon us, without retarding the development of our general programme."


Churchill war report to the Commons 18th June 1940:

("the Battle of France is over... I expect the Battle of Britain to begin..."etc)

"During the last few days we have successfully brought off the great majority of the troops we had on the lines of communication in France—a very large number, scores of thousands—and seven-eighths of 53 the troops we have sent to France since the beginning of the war, that is to say, about 350,000 out of 400,000 men, are safely back in this country. Others are still fighting with the French, and fighting with considerable success in their local encounters with the enemy. We have also brought back a great mass of stores, rifles and munitions of all kinds which had been accumulated in France during the last nine months." (my bold)

"We have, therefore, in this island to-day a very large and powerful military force. This force includes all our best trained and finest troops and includes scores of thousands of those who have already measured their quality against the Germans and found themselves at no disadvantage. We have under arms at the present time in this island over a million and a quarter men. Behind these we have the Local Defence Volunteers, numbering half a million, only a portion of whom, however, are yet armed with files or other firearms. We have incorporated into our Defence Forces every man for whom we have a weapon. We expect a very large addition to our weapons in the near future, and in preparation for this we intend to call up, drill and train further large numbers at once. " (my bold)

Churchill was referring to land forces, with reference to the invasion threat, so this tends to confirm that about 1.5 million men were armed (- principally with rifles, according to the scales of the time). If you read Churchill's assessments (in speeches or his diaries) you will see that his information of the facts changes significantly between the 4th June (just after Op Dynamo was complete), the 18th June (after a fortnight of sorting out the returned forces) and later dates. It probably took weeks or even months for the armed forces to properly audit their France losses and update war diaries and divisional returns, and many key facts - such as small arms returns - may not have been accurately established until much later, by which time they were more or less irrelevant at Parliament and in the historical record.

It should also be noted that there were service rifles (No1s) not accounted for and held back from the Home Guard that were instead ear-marked for the inflow of regular army trainees.

You can also deduce the approximate number of No1s available quite simply: the No1 was the main service rifle up until 1942/3. In that time UK deployed about 55 divisions in the field, and about 2 million men under arms of all types ( the RAF, RN, depots and support troops also had large quantities of rifles, of course). Apart from a few thousand BSA MkIIIs and Dispersals, no significant quantities of No1s were manufactured (eg the thousands of SMLEs seen to day are about 99% WW1-dated). Note that, for example, there is no evidence of P14 (or M17, '03) use by the regular army outside of sniping and basic training - even during the invasion scare months of June-September 1940.

[Brit plumber]

Behind these we have the Local Defence Volunteers, numbering half a million, only a portion of whom, however, are yet armed with files or other firearms.

Had a little chuckle at that, LDV armed with files! I hope they were using Dreadnaught or Bastard files!

[Thunderbox]

Had a little chuckle at that, LDV armed with files! I hope they were using Dreadnaught or Bastard files!

I cut and paste from Hansard, so it must be true! Maybe it meant files as in paper files - fighting the Nazis in Whitehall by chucking lever-arch binders out of the windows at them...

[Kev G]

but will say that there is a distinct difference between rifles being repaired and hence out of service and not on issue and those which can be counted as ready for issue or on issue.

The figures are taken from Ministry of Supply data for deliveries back into UK stock (1st Sept 1940 and Dec 1st 1940)

ATB Kevin