OOB premature discharge question

[csmarcher]

Has anyone experienced a Bren having an out-of-battery premature discharge ??


I was working with a chap recently on a television show in where a Bren was being used, however I was not on set when this problem occurred. According to the armorer who was there, the primer of one of the rounds (it was older 1950's ammo) had been completely blown out of the primer pocket , and had gone off prematurely and caused the remaining rounds in the magazine to blow out through the bottom of the floorplate along with the spring and magazine follower.

Correct me if I'm mistaken here but doesn't the Bren's bolt design prevent it from firing if it's not in battery ??

I suspected that it may be something more than what was indicated.

Nobody was hurt when this happened , and both the set armorer and the gun rental company armorer have checked the gun and have declared it safe.

I'm just curious if it may be something with the ammo.

Thanks

Gary

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[Brit plumber]

I dont see how this could ever happen, the firing pin will not protrude through to the bolt face untill the bolt is locked and the carrier moves forward to lock the the bolt against the locking shoulder. Also, how did it set the other rounds off? The round dosn't sit into the breech face untill its cleared the magazine. The only thing that I can think of is that the first round was some how jammed incorrectly in the mag and one of the feed horns contacted the primer and initiated it. Thats a slim chance though!

How random.

[Peter Laidler]

Firstly, I'd question the set 'armourer' (no capital letter here note.....). Many people have been known to call themselves Armourers, including those living in TV and Cinema land. The less said about them, the better...........

In theory, what BP said above is absolutely correct. The mechanical safety features built in the gun ensure that it CANNOT fire until the breech block is positively locked behind the locking shoulder AND it has travelled a further .25" or so further forward. Thus making doubly sure that the breech is locked.

HOWEVER, if your 'armourer' (note, no capital letter here) hadn't ensured that the barrel nut was locked down, then at the moment of firing, the barrel could tend to move forwards a tad and the cartridge case is still gripped by the tightened extractor claw so it will fire. At the instant of firing, the barrel will try to move forwards a bit more and if it's not locked, then it certainly WILL move. Not a lot, but sufficient to allow a lot of expanding gas to enter the body, bulge it (yes it will.........) and seek the least line of resistance. And that is usually out of the top of the magazine.

AS for checking the gun afterwards and declaring it safe............. I dispair.............. Film and TV armourers........ and those 'police' armourers - we've seen 'em all before! Enthusiastic, yes, amateurs, yes, enthusiastic amateurs, definately. But Armourers..................

[tankhunter]

Peter, With regards to your comments concerning TV set 'armourers'? (Sic) You put it a damm site more politely than I would! I have been known for my position on intolerence towards these 'sort of people'! I think you could say it like, 'They were left in ABSOULTELY No doubt as to my thoughts as what they THOUGHT they were!!! As for police 'armourers', (Unless they are EX S.E.ME. or Carlisle Etc Establisment trained) well, I wouldnt trust half of them with a Waterpistol!!!!!!!!!!! Rant over, may I get my coat now please?......................

[csmarcher]

Peter and company,

Thanks for the replies on this subject. You confirmed what I had first thought that it's not possible to go off like that.

Would a pierced primer do similar damage ?

Just to clarify, the remainder of the rounds in the magazine did NOT detonate, but the OOB discharge caused the remaining rounds to exit the magazine through the floorplate and land in front of the gun.

My suspicion is pointing to the ammunition. Old 1950's rubbish which is known for hangfires and slow ignition.

The set armorer in question is a US Army veteran armorer, who is a pretty decent bloke with guns, if anything can be said his only fault is lack of knowledge on older British Weapons (which is why they asked me to come out, unfortunately after the fact)

The studio services that rent the weapons are utterly clueless. They butcher and bastardize weapons to make them serviceable to fire mostly blanks, so when it's really needed to fire live rounds, they don't necessarily work 100% reliably.

Don't get me started to what they did to the poor Vickers Gun in this weeks shoot............

[Brit plumber]

Agh, I get you now, when you said blow out, I thought the 1st round had caused some of the rounds in the mag to go too.

What did they do to the Vickers gun? I would expect that to be a pretty easy conversion to blank fire.

[roconn]

Effendi:
On the Congo border in the 60's there was an AD (accidental discharge) resulting in a fatality. According to the Bren gunner who had finished cleaning the LMG the working parts were back and the body yet to be rejoined. The gunner than placed a full mag onto the body and slammed the working parts and body together in order to push home the body locking pin. Upon slamming the parts together the Bren fired a single fatal into the RLI Pte seated a few feet away.
There were many attempts in the following days to replicate conditions but could not get a similar 'slam-fire' --- the offending troopie was rearward bound regardless.
20 years later a highly esteemed member of the REME encountered a similar AD - a slam-fire with a 303 cal Bren. It just did not make sense to the Enquiry -- however a real Armourer noticed high primer seating and said so in his report.
regds from the colonial side
roconn

[csmarcher]

Roconn

My thought was that a primer that was possibly punctured and got stick to the firing pin which may have contacted the primer of the next round causing the OOB discharge.

Brit Plumber,

They "converted" this poor old Vickers into an "aircooled" gun, by drilling two holes in the front of the water jacket !!
I'm sure fro blank fire it was fine, but when they attempted to use it for live fire the vibration and occillation of the gun made hitting the target impossible. It also casued so much vibration ,the booster cone would work loose after every 100 rounds and start to fall off !!!

If the 7 pints of water that should have been in the water jacket were in place the vibration and occilation would have been dampened down to almost nothing.

These studio guns are a nightmare.

I need to get a Vickers MMG to rent out !!

Gary

[mrspeel]

were hangfires noted before the discharge?
was the gas regulator on the highest setting, to compensate for perceived short recoil, with previous firings from that batch?
was there anything unusual reported with the other primers (piled metal)?

[csmarcher]

were hangfires noted before the discharge?
was the gas regulator on the highest setting, to compensate for perceived short recoil, with previous firings from that batch?
was there anything unusual reported with the other primers (piled metal)?

Yes to all of the above , the gas was on #3 when I saw the gun.