Historical Enfield Question

[Peter Laidler]

It's said that noone who got off the beaches in the 'small boats', - the boats that took them from the beaches to the bigger ships - took a rifle with them. They took up too much room, were too unwieldly and they'd never get onto the big boats if they had a rifle

[Thunderbox]

It's said that noone who got off the beaches in the 'small boats', - the boats that took them from the beaches to the bigger ships - took a rifle with them. They took up too much room, were too unwieldly and they'd never get onto the big boats if they had a rifle

Its an interesting topic; like most here, I have about 30-40 books relating to Dunkirk, and there are as many anecdotes about people chucking their rifles and kit away as there are those where Tommy x clambers up the netting sans trousers but with his rifle and dignity intact. Vide the number of accounts where "troops with rifles" are sent to one end of the vessel for AAAD duty, whilst everyone else empties their chargers to feed whatever MG the boat has. I've personally met about a dozen Dunkirk vets that I know about, but only ever asked one about this topic in recent years. He was (IIRC) Middlesex in 3 Div, and recalls quite adamantly that his lot boarded from the Mole, not only with personal weapons - but complete with their Vickers guns, including CES. (Incidentally, he really rated Monty as Div Comd - saying that his lot always felt they were manoeuvring under effective command, rather than being in any sort of disorganised retreat.)

I wonder if there are enough vets left in the Dunkirk association to give a reasonable sample for a questionnaire? Apart from the rifles issues, I'm also curious about the (apparently) high loss of Brens compared to the fact than many (more unwieldy) Vickers appeared to have at least made it back into the evacuation zone - even if they did get the bodies less working parts dumped in the sea thereafter. I have a theory (to do with vehicle mountings and the scale of magazine issue) arising from a few anecdotes, but its practically impossible to find this sort of detail in published accounts.

[P-07ShortLee]

Good posts, really put things into perspective.

Is it possible the some of the abandoned/discarded rifles were put to work by those who remained? Or do you think the choice would have been made nearer the water when faced with the condition (crowding) of the vessels?

[Amatikulu]

I got this off the BBC web-site. It's just one eye witness account but this guy came off the beach with his rifle, and he was in the Service Corps!

Eric Pemberton, 82, was in the Royal Army Service Corps during World War II. He spent four long days on the beach at Dunkirk, but says he was one of the lucky ones.

You didn't know what was going on around you.
The Germans had got within shelling range, so we used to get in the dunes when we could, but we were helpless there too really. We just had to take it as it came.
Being a young man, these sort of things don't worry you, but if it happened now I'd be scared stiff.
They keep referring to the 'Dunkirk spirit' - everybody helped everybody. On the beaches there was no panic. We all took our turn when we waded out at night.
I was lifted out of the water by the Ramsgate lifeboat crew who put me onto a rowing boat. It took us out to a lifeboat and from there they rowed us out to a Dutch coal boat and that took us to Ramsgate.
They took my rifle off me and I had my first cup of tea for four days and my first sandwich for four days - so I thought I was a lucky lad.

[Thunderbox]

One of the best books about Dunkirk is a recent one: "Dunkirk; Fight to the Last Man" Hugh Sebag-Montefiore ISBN 978-0-141-02437-0 Very scholarly work that covers most of the detail.

One of the bits which is missing from all histories about the Dunkirk evacuation is obvious to the military eye: none of the commanders involved has been indiscreet enough to mention the actual staff plan for the evacuation - ie which units were prioritised for evacuation (initially, of course, they only thought they'd save a few thousand) and which ones were assumed to be lost (not counting the sacrificial perimeter rearguards). By looking at the personal accounts, its possible to deduce what happened: the intact line infantry units were directed to the town and the Mole for immediate evacuation, followed by major formed divisional units, such as gun batteries and engineer squadrons. The odds-and-sods divisional and lines of communication troops, straggling back in small units and groups, were directed to the beaches four or five miles away. This reflects what happened in Greece, Crete and Norway, where brutal-but-logical decisions had to be taken about who to save and who to abandon to captivity.

This evacuation plan is reflected in the profile of the accounts: most of the "beach & small boats" accounts come from RASC, Signals, unit echelon troops, etc. This is also reflected in anecdotes that refer to lack of small arms or acquisition of small arms: the line infantry units mostly marched to the Mole with their full equipment - as you'd expect with infantry. The support troops, by contrast, had been heavily dependent upon motor transport. Anyone who has served can probably confirm that the back of a flaggies' wagon is more like a hamster nest of cooking equipment and cushty sleeping arrangements - with rifles usually buried somewhere at the bottom. Many accounts report the loss of rifles when transport was either shot up or abandoned. Many other reports also tell of disarmed men retrieving arms from such vehicles.

[P-07ShortLee]

Good points brought up by Thunderbox.

[Peter Laidler]

Digressing a bit, but in any interview with a veteran, you're really hardly liable to hear one say something like
'.......I was scared xxxtless so I legged it down to the water, threw my kit off and just jumped into the boat'
'Oh, and what did you do with your rifle..?'
'Rifle......, what rifle......., when you're as scared as I was, it was in the boat and off me old son! You don't think I'm going to be trapped in France for 4 shillings a day do you?

[PrinzEugen]

I read a while ago Julian Thompson's book on Dunkirk, and it emphasized that the majority of the troops marched off in good(ish) order from the mole onto navy destroyers, carrying their arms. There's certainly no shortage of anecdotes of pongos shooting from ships with brens and rifles at German dive bombers. These personal accounts include those who were picked them up in small boats, as well as those rescued by destroyers coming alongside the mole. Not that anecotes prove anything, of course, although they add to the overall picture. Good thread though and very interesting.

[bouletbill]

I guess there must have been chaos in many areas and it's hard to imagine what was going through the minds of those stuck on the beaches within sight of the boats , but I suspect that any lad who chucked his kit and swam for it wouldn't have been allowed to queue-jump the lines of infantry standing shoulder deep out at the boats ... he would've probably found a line of underwater bayonets pointing his way back to the beach !
There may have been little boats picking up individuals though on the fringes .
The sand dunes must have been thoroughly sifted for milsurp treasure long long ago . Best dealers of crusty rifles were usually Belgian .

[Thunderbox]

The sand dunes must have been thoroughly sifted for milsurp treasure long long ago . Best dealers of crusty rifles were usually Belgian .

I guess either the Germans or the Belgians must have dredged the harbour around the Mole and the canals that criss-cross the Dunkirk hinterland - the quantity of dumped kit in the waterways must have been enormous. I imagine there must be lot still there, even in an era of metal detectors. Fairly large items are still turning up in Arnhem, which has been picked over for decades.

I was trying to find one amusing account (I think it is one of the Imperial War Museum's audio archives): one of the boats pulled a young lad out of the sea; he not only had his rifle and ammo, but was in fact in full marching order with boots, helmet, webbing, large pack, small pack, groundsheet & greatcoat (no idea how he managed to float). It turns out that he was so terrified of his Company Sergeant Major, that he'd decided to leave nothing behind!