Ross rifle sniper

[dirtbag]

Hi lads I'm new to this forum and I am looking at making up one of these rifles using a Warner Swasey scope.

Is there any pitcures out there of these rifles at all please ?

My ONLY concern is that I am left handed, and I noted that this scope sits left off centre. Do you think I would still be able to shoot the rifle left handed ?


cheers

DB

Information

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[smellie]

I would think that it would be extremely difficult to aim and shoot a 1910 Ross Rifle, equipped with the standard Warner & Swayze telescope, from the left shoulder. The eyepiece of the telescope does not sit anywhere NEAR the bore of the rifle; it is WELL off to the left side. It was a good arrangement when it was designed, but it was designed more than a century ago.

The original telescopes for this rifle are anything but common, as they also were used on some of the US Spingfield Model of 1903 rifles. In Canadian Service, there were only 500 telescopes purchased, of which 250 were fitted to rifles in 1915, the rest in 1917. Scopes were numbered to the rifles, 1 through 500.

If you click on where it says Knowledge Library (top left as the Site comes onto the screen) you will be taken to the Military Knowledge Library, which is essentially a treasure-house of books, manuals, articles and photographs. Every month has a particular firearm "starring" and the "star" for this month is Number 223 of that first 250 Ross Snipers. What you will be looking at is a photographic 'tour' of the rifle, every detail you could ask for. You'll see immediately the problems with the W&S scope.

But despair not! for Rosses were scoped with many different kinds of telescope, even during the Great War itself. Alex Martin of Glasgow (Ross Rifle agents, by the way) even made mounts to adapt the Mark III rifle to the Aldis telescope, which would have been my own personal choice had I been there rather than my grandfather. He was a battalion-level sniper with 54 Battalion, CEF and carried a Ross until the War ended.

Something not generally realised is that ANY telescope-mounted rifle was a curiosity at that time. MUCH sniping was done with Rosses with the factory iron sights, also a great deal with "stripped" rifles: what we now would call Bubba sporters with the wood removed from the middle band forward. But they are very accurate rifles, quite enough that if the rifle is shooting well and the ammo is up to snuff and you can hold the rifle, you can hit pretty much whatever you see. My own Mark III has shot third-of-a-minute called groups enough times that folks no longer call me a liar to my face (I think they wait until my back is turned!), although I am not handicapping the rifle with 65-year-old ammunition.

Rosses are fun. Take a look at the 'tour' of that beautiful rifle in the MKL; that will answer your question better than I can. And be sure to download some of the articles on the Ross. There ARE important safety issues to know about, specially with the Mark III (1910) rifle.

Enjoy! And welcome aboard.
.

[Badger]

Is there any pitcures out there of these rifles at all please ?

Refer to the MKL, specifically the Canada section ...

You'll find a complete entry with a 227 pic photo montage.

1915 M10 Ross MkIII* Sniper Rifle

Also, refer to the Scopes and Binoculars category at the bottom of left panel, or under the U.S. section (take your choice) and there's a 44 pic photo montage with operating explanation for:

Model 1913 Warner & Swasey Telescopic Musket Sights
5.2x power scope with 1 1/2" eye relief - Weight 2 1/4 lbs.
c/w M1908 Pattern Leather Carrying Case (Mfg in 1917 by RIA - Rock Island Arsenal)

Model 1913 Warner Swasey Telescopic Musket Sights

Regards,
Doug

[dirtbag]

I would think that it would be extremely difficult to aim and shoot a 1910 Ross Rifle, equipped with the standard Warner & Swayze telescope, from the left shoulder. The eyepiece of the telescope does not sit anywhere NEAR the bore of the rifle; it is WELL off to the left side. It was a good arrangement when it was designed, but it was designed more than a century ago.

The original telescopes for this rifle are anything but common, as they also were used on some of the US Spingfield Model of 1903 rifles. In Canadian Service, there were only 500 telescopes purchased, of which 250 were fitted to rifles in 1915, the rest in 1917. Scopes were numbered to the rifles, 1 through 500.

If you click on where it says Knowledge Library (top left as the Site comes onto the screen) you will be taken to the Military Knowledge Library, which is essentially a treasure-house of books, manuals, articles and photographs. Every month has a particular firearm "starring" and the "star" for this month is Number 223 of that first 250 Ross Snipers. What you will be looking at is a photographic 'tour' of the rifle, every detail you could ask for. You'll see immediately the problems with the W&S scope.

But despair not! for Rosses were scoped with many different kinds of telescope, even during the Great War itself. Alex Martin of Glasgow (Ross Rifle agents, by the way) even made mounts to adapt the Mark III rifle to the Aldis telescope, which would have been my own personal choice had I been there rather than my grandfather. He was a battalion-level sniper with 54 Battalion, CEF and carried a Ross until the War ended.

Something not generally realised is that ANY telescope-mounted rifle was a curiosity at that time. MUCH sniping was done with Rosses with the factory iron sights, also a great deal with "stripped" rifles: what we now would call Bubba sporters with the wood removed from the middle band forward. But they are very accurate rifles, quite enough that if the rifle is shooting well and the ammo is up to snuff and you can hold the rifle, you can hit pretty much whatever you see. My own Mark III has shot third-of-a-minute callsed groups enough times that folks no longer call me a liar to my face (I think they wait until my back is turned!), although I am not handicapping the rifle with 65-year-old ammunition.

Rosses are fun. Take a look at the 'tour' of that beautiful rifle in the MKL; that will answer your question better than I can. And be sure to download some of the articles on the Ross. There ARE important safety issues to know about, specially with the Mark III (1910) rifle.

Enjoy! And welcome aboard.
.

Hello, many thanks for the info. Are there any pictures of the Ross with with the aldis, a5 or PPco please ?

and what mounts do I need please ?


cheers

DB

[Surpmil]

The A5 is your best bet for a recreation. Easiest to find and mount and cheapest, just simply Lyman type dovetail blocks (3/8"?). Also one of the most common combinations in the CEF. You can use a sporterized rifle, even with a cut barrel as most of them were cut down originally, particularly when the A5 was fitted, from the photos we have.

No Aldis fitted to MkIII Rosses in WWI to my knowledge, and the only PPCo. example known is of uncertain parentage, thought it looks rough enough to be a front line job. The back of the base would need careful adaption. If the example in the Canadian War Museum is original, they probably just hacked the left receiver wall off the donor SMLE/PPCo. and milled/ground it to fit the left wall of the Ross MkIII. Given the much better accuracy of the Ross it would probably have been worth the trouble, especially if the SMLE's barrel was getting worn. See "In The Trenches, 1914-1918" for more details.

[dirtbag]

Many thanks for the info. So the Lyman type dovetail blocks. Are these the same as what was used back then ?

[Surpmil]

Not exactly the same, just the same dovetail. On the Ross MkIII you'd best have a look at an original in one of the museums and even then you probably won't get to look under the front handguard to see what the block looks like, so you'll just have to adapt to get the necessary height to match the top of the receiver ring.