Safety Question

[pigspitter]

Its probably a rifle that was un-DP'd in 1940, along with quite a few EYs and GFs. You do see quite a few with these cancellation marks.

What's an EY and GF? So this gun should be safe to shoot, correct?

[Peter Laidler]

Pigsplitter, I suggest that you read all the threads on this forum regarding this subject first. Done that.......... Now I'd like you to read and digest what Son has said. There's another REME Armouer who knows a few things. Now I'll tell you a few things that might run contrary to others ideas and theories. I have been involved in the process of the selection of rifles to DP specification. In fact, I was also involved in drawing up the specification of the later DP rifles. That should set out my stall. I have never heard of any rifle being officially UN DP'd and if such rifles were un DP'd, then as sure as god made little green apples, we, as Armourers WOULD know about a cancelled DP mark. Just think about it, How would we NOT know about such an important safety related matter............. Come on! And I can tell you that the initial selection of rifles for conversion to DP standard is ALWAYS from rifles that had failed a critical gauging or other specification failuree. This was inevitably in the rifle body because this was the part that was not replaceable in our service. I've mentioned it before of hundreds subject to an intense fire. YOU don't know that it might have altered the structural integrity of the hardening of the body but I did - because I subject a sample batch to hardness testing.

Your rifle might visually be fine but metallurgically a sack of c--p. Or worn out beyond the capacity of the gauge limits which neither you nor most others n the forum don't have. But I'd suggest that you do this. To everyone who says that a DP marked rifle is fine and safe, then ask them to put it in writing. I am the most senior Armourer in the UK MoD Army. No thanks....................... but I could be wrong

Son, Tankie and Skippy, all well qualified Armourers, would you guarantee the future safety of an ex DP rifle and say so in writing, with your pension hanging on it?

Has that answered your question pigspitter........................

[pigspitter]

Thank you very much. I guess this gun will be a wall hanger from now on. We have a saying around here "Better safe than sorry" and I'll take that to heart in this case.

[Amatikulu]

Some further information on your observations and their significance, from my point of view:

1. The "SC" stamp stands for short cone and the "HV" stamp stands for high velocity. They were stamped on the barrel at the time of manufacture to indicate that the chamber of the barrel was made for the Mark VII ammunition which was the standard service round at the time. It has nothing to do with a safety rating beyond the indication that it was suitable for Mark VII ammunition.

2. "DP" is a military designation that a rifle is for Drill Purposes only. The problem with the DP mark is that it doesn't say why it was converted to DP standards as most rifles converted to this had a serious problem, but not all.

3. There is no way that someone sitting on his computer can say if your rifle is safe to shoot. That would be guess work at best, and we wouldn't want anyone to take a risk. The rifle would have to be completley inspected by a very knowledgeable expert gunsmith/armourer. The chances are that for this weapon there are few if any that still exist with the detailled knowledge and tools and even if you found someone, it would most likely be economically senseless. Hence, it is standard practice to not shoot a rifle once its been classified as "DP"

4. "EY" means emergency use only and "GF" means grenade firing. Common markings on rifles that were a little more worn.

5. Now, your BNP mark is a civilian proof mark showing that your receiver underwent proof testing after military use. The mark came into use from 1954. Your barrel should also carry a BNP proof mark...........does it?
If it does, it looks like your rifle was re-proofed once in civilian hands with the aim of shooting it.

Out of curiosity, does any of the wood have the DP mark on it?

These comments are for information purposes and not intended to contradict the good advice you have received so far.
I personaly would not shoot a DP marked rifle as it's an unnecessary risk.

[pigspitter]

The stock has been sporterized and refinished, so any markings have been removed. I'll check to see if it has been reproofed on the barrel.

[Son]

Pigspitter,
Thankyou for being open minded enough about your rifle to take on board what has been said. All too often we see similar questions asked and answered, only to have the poster go on to ask elsewhere until they get an answer they like.

No, I will never say anything other than "do not fire a DP rifle".
Even if it has survived a civilian proof round, no one can tell you it won't fail sooner rather than later. It has most likely failed a test which said it would not have sufficient safe service left to warrant repair and re-issue.

[krinko]

"I have never heard of any rifle being officially UN DP'd..."

"British Small Arms Of WW2"----Skennerton page 7:

12. 2.42 No.1 rifle, assy f/ stripped DP Cogswell&Harrison 496
7. 5.42 No.1 rifle, assy f/DP models B.S.A. 6,500
20. 5.42 No.1 rifle, assy f/DP parts Holland & Holland 4,500

11,496 un-DP rifles, in whole or in part.

-----krinko

[Peter Laidler]

I read that too Krinko and I'd suggest that you read it again. Were the DP rifles STRIPPED for parts in order to make serviceable rifles?
OR, as it says, were XYZ amount of rifles made up from stripped DP rifles?

This isn't the same as UN - DP'ing a DP rifle or using a previous DP as a service rifle. After all, most scrap cars cntain thousands of serviceable parts that we regularly cannibalise to keep our everyday cars going (you do if you own an MG, believe me........)

I retierate that I have never read an instruction to Armourers in the old ACI's (Army Council Instructions), SAI's (Small Arms Instructions), EMER's or the Equipment Regulations (the ER's) that '....Armourers will see DP marked rifles that have been returned to serviceable condition. These rifles look good but by some dint of white mans magic have been deemed to be suitable for front line service by being brought up to A1 condition. In the richter scale of small arms, these rifles fall below that of EY and Sub Standard......'

No, I just have to say that once a DP, always a DP - that's why we stamp a xxxxing great 1/2" DP stamp deeply into the body and barrel. I only say that from the UK Military point of view. What your average enthusiastic amateur or commercial gunsmith chooses to use as his criteria or how he chooses to take up worn out locking shoulders, stretched body or tighten up a boltway in a rifle is a matter for him. I appreciate that he's got a living to make from making good and selling it on but we haven't. In other words, some have a vested interest and I haven't

[krinko]

Were the DP rifles STRIPPED for parts in order to make serviceable rifles?
OR, as it says, were XYZ amount of rifles made up from stripped DP rifles?

It's one of the first case and two of the second.
We aren't using the Humpty Dumpty English, are we?
-----krinko

[Jc5]

your BNP mark is a civilian proof mark showing that your receiver underwent proof testing after military use. The mark came into use from 1954. Your barrel should also carry a BNP proof mark...........does it?
If it does, it looks like your rifle was re-proofed once in civilian hands with the aim of shooting it.

I wonder, how and under what circumstances would the Birmingham Proof House proof a DP rifle? Wouldn't they have known the meaning of DP and rejected it at once?