Which is the best Sniper?

[Rumpelhardt]

My comment was in no way intended to deride the Mosin Nagant rifle's accuracy. It was more of an ergonomics thing for me personally. Most of my hunting is done with a Winchester Model 70 that to get the scope where I wanted it I mounted it so low that I had to remove the open sight because of an annoying shadow in the bottom of the scope from it.
I find the Mosin to be generally just a little cumbersome to operate and shoot particularly when compared to the No.4 Enfield but again that is mostly a personal fit issue.

[jmoore]

Well since it's all settled , let's just pitch the lot and go out and buy brand new synthetic stocked stainless steel rifles w/ laser range finding scopes and test them... Anybody interested?


All right then!

Sorry I could not contribute more milsurp field data this year, but the deer or the weather weren't cooperating.

[Rumpelhardt]

Well since it's all settled , let's just pitch the lot and go out and buy brand new synthetic stocked stainless steel rifles w/ laser range finding scopes and test them... Anybody interested?

All ready did that.

No lasers though and not stainless. Heavy as all get out and no where near as interesting as the milsurps.

[PrinzEugen]

An interesting question - and what about the german K98 mauser? Is it because of the wide variety of scopes used that it is hard to get a 'typical' version - or was it not up to the other two? If not I'm surprised given the devotion of the mauser-philes and the general high opinion in which the rifle is held.
As a matter of interest, I was just reading William Lubbeck's At Leningrad's Gates. He was in the 58th Div in Army Group North which was involved in the static siege around Leningrad where there was a lot of sniping. One comment he made which I found interesting was along the lines that the German snipers highly prized the soviet rifles with telescopic sights and if they could get hold of one, used it in preference to their mausers.

[Chris7171]

Between the two of them, IMHO the two best sniper rifles of WWII, there isn't a lot of practical difference. The raised, add on, cheek piece makes the No4 T more ergonomically appealing but they are both similar in accuracy, repeatability and reliability.

Personally, I would think that in trained hands it would be a toss up of which would be the winner.

I agree with you completely, I am approaching this test with no biased to ether rifle and will try to be as fair as I can with my findings.

I will post a report after the trip for all to read.

Chris

[bearhunter]

Chris, I've personally tested an M1D, No4 Mk1 T, Mosin 91/30PU, Mosin 91/30PE and an M41 Swede. I've also owned and used German 98 Mausers and a beautiful but unreliable(ammunition fault) Kar43. Both the German rifles were scoped.
The Mauser 98, had one of those awful little LER scopes that was abysmal at best. The M41 Swede was accurate and repeatable but not as well balanced as the Mosin. The Aga 3X scope is good but has a lot of paralax as most of the WWII era scopes do and was hard to get my head in the same spot every time as it was so high. Both Mosins were fine but the PU scope was also to high for my short neck, very similar to the M41. The mosin with the PE mounted scope is fantastic and the target is easily engaged and quickly. It's also my favorite. The No4 MkI T is a very close second. The only problem I had with it is weight from an off hand stance. The T I had at the time was an Indian conversion to MkI/3, with a MkI scope (nightmare to adjust) It was well balanced and accurate with issue ammunition.
The M1D was only OK. If it didn't have tailored ammunition, it was all over the paper. As such I wouldn't consider it reliable or repeatable and in the field, I would be leery of it and therefore non confident in its performance. It has all the necessary cheek pads and flash hider as well as the leather sling and is very pretty but still, maybe I just need more time with it. The Breda M1 that I have, will shoot just about any surplus or commercial ammunition into 2 inches or less.

The M1D is for me a wash out and is more likely my fault than the rifle/scope(M84). The PE Mosin, my favorite, shot into 1 1/2 inches at 100m, 2 1/2 inches at 200m and 4 inches at 300m. I is the only sniper of all of them that I can consistently hit a 12 inch gong at 600m, if I do my part and the ammunition likes the rifle.
The PU Mosin was similar but at 300m the group opened up to 7 inches, my fault because I was having trouble centering my eye to the exit lens.
The No4 T shot well at all ranges out to 300m 1 1/2 to 2 minutes of angle with good consistent ammunition. Completely reliable no hiccups.
The K98 with the LER scope was impossible to sight in or focus. It suffered from a very close depth of field and for me, was always out of focus. If the light was low at all, it was useless. The rifle itself, was accurate but the scope hindered it rather than enhanced it.
The Kar 43 with the ZF4 system was very accurate, after I added a lace on 1 inch high leather cheek piece. I used this because of the offset scope and to center my eye on the exit lens. It came close to the PE mounted Mosin but was severely effected by the commercial ammunition I was using. It was in VG+ to Exc condition and wouldn't cycle reliably. I ended up loading one round at a time. It grouped as well as the PE mosin and the No4 T, It rivaled the Mosin right out to 300m where the groups started to open. I suspect that was more due to ammunition than the rifle. Just to let you know how highly the Axis powers regarded the PU scopes, the ZF4 is almost identical in sze and adjustments.

All of the rifles were fired on the same day, one right after the other on targets that were set up horizontally across a multiple target frame. The day was warm, from 15C to 22C with only a few small clouds and very clear. Perfect fall conditions. I fired the 100m targets from a prone position the 200m and 300m from a bench. The targets set at 400m, 500m and 600m were all shot from a prone position. After sighters, five shots were made on each target. The 600m target, was a 12 inch chrome carbide surfaced plate.

I wish I still had the Kar 43 but a fellow was willing to pay an exorbitant price for it and away it went, just like the minty Springfield 43 dated M1 Garand. I should have known better than to have put them out on the rack at the gun show. They just draw so much interest that it's like having a revolving blue light at Walmart. I will have to think long and hard before I do that again. Even the "not for sale"sign wasn't a deterrent for collectors with deep pockets and a hard on for the rifles.

[robbie]

Two awesome rifles, good luck with the trial tho. Not much between them, My money is on a complete tie or maybe the lighter rifle will just make it, just. They look to be in great condition and i can only wish they were in my safe!

[Rumpelhardt]

What are the conditions where you will be hunting? Will you be on foot or in a blind/stand? Thick brush, open country or somewhere in the middle?
My prediction, open country from a rest? Equal or close to it. On the move quick shots? the Enfield

[bearhunter]

X2 rumplehardt, that's where the cheek rest really pays off.

[OxfordAndy]

An interesting question - and what about the german K98 mauser? Is it because of the wide variety of scopes used that it is hard to get a 'typical' version - or was it not up to the other two? If not I'm surprised given the devotion of the mauser-philes and the general high opinion in which the rifle is held.
As a matter of interest, I was just reading William Lubbeck's At Leningrad's Gates. He was in the 58th Div in Army Group North which was involved in the static siege around Leningrad where there was a lot of sniping. One comment he made which I found interesting was along the lines that the German snipers highly prized the soviet rifles with telescopic sights and if they could get hold of one, used it in preference to their mausers.

I thought of posting a similar question....but I'm guessing that the choice was between these two as those are rifles the OP owns?