Proof Firing

[Bill Ricca]

I have seen a few GI barrels with 2 P's and several bolts with 2 punches. I even saw one bolt that looked it had like 3, but since it was refinished several times, it was hard to determine for sure.

[bulldog_mack13]

I was told by 2 "experts" who isnt though... , that the Gov. used thease barrels like this in theater and as unit/company or battailion level replacement barrels that unit lever armourers that would only have a small machine P on them then they would hand stamp the rest. One said thats what he did in the Navy abord ship. That the looked the same.

Thats the only good stories I have on the barrel , I do have more pictures of the barrel with the gun apart I will email you guys, Jay

[Joe W]

Certainly no "expert" but I can tell you that a "unit/company or battailion" armory is considered a 2nd Echelon repair shop. While in the Marine Corps I was a Small Arms Repairman (2111) MOS. I worked both as a battalion armorer and also at a rifle range armory, which was considered 3rd Echelon. Barrel replacement could only be performed at a 5th Echelon facility. I don't know about WW2 but I am pretty sure barrel changes were not done at unit or battalion level. In TM9-1275 "Ordnance Maintenance U.S. Rifles, Cal. 30" dated June 1947, tools such as the barrel and receiver wrench are listed as "Tools for fifth eclelon only". I am sure Bill Ricca could give a bit more information.

[Bill Ricca]

As far as I know Barrels were never changed at unit level. One could get that information by the -20 technical manuals, which were targeted toward unit armorers. The manuals show what was authorized for use by unit armorers. The early manuals showed "Quantity Authorized" and the later showed the "Quantity Used by Number of Days", or words to that effect (memory). Neither barrels nor bolts were at the unit level.

Although all parts were displayed in the -20 TM, there were no barrels listed as a changed item.

When I was in the 82d the unit armorer just changed the simple parts with replacements. He had no machining capability. I do not remember Battalion Armorers (small arms) back in the 1960's in the 82d. There was a Maintenance Battalion within the Division, which consisted of 4 companies. Each company supported one of the three infantry brigades, with one company very specialized in non infantry equipment. That Battalion was known as Direct Support.

Barrel and bolt changes was authorized at higher levels, like General Support, and Depot levels. By circa 1968, General Support was eliminated and many responsibilities were lowered to Direct Support.

For a unit armorer to change either item, he needed the capability of occasionally cutting head space (with M1 Rifles it rarely happened). If you look at the gages assigned to a unit armorer in the TM's, there were just field test gages. A field test gage measures an item to see if it is serviceable. There were no gages used to check the changing of an item. Changing those parts were done at higher levels.

[bulldog_mack13]

So then if the barrel is good like im told by the people who have inspected it in person then the barrel would have been changed out at higher up and not at company or battalion level. Im learning something new with the info you guys are giving. Now was the Navy to the same specs. as the Army when it came ot all that? Gene said he was in the Navy and stamped barrels just like this one aboard ship.

On current note:
Being a Company armorer in 2008 we had a civi team come in and change barrels in my arms room on a few M4's but alot of 16A4's were changed up cleaned up by them.

[musketshooter]

Here is a picture of Remington proof 30-06 loads. Bullets have a red tip and cases are nickel.

[Joe W]

So then if the barrel is good like im told by the people who have inspected it in person then the barrel would have been changed out at higher up and not at company or battalion level. Im learning something new with the info you guys are giving. Now was the Navy to the same specs. as the Army when it came ot all that? Gene said he was in the Navy and stamped barrels just like this one aboard ship.

On current note:
Being a Company armorer in 2008 we had a civi team come in and change barrels in my arms room on a few M4's but alot of 16A4's were changed up cleaned up by them.

Things are quite a bit different since the days of the M1 and the M14. As far as the Navy, I am pretty sure that they followed the same weapon repair specs as the Army and Marine Corps. Only place I know of that the Navy did 5th echlon repair would be Navy Rebuild Facility at Crane Indiana but I would guess there are others. Crane would be the Navys equivilent of the Marine Corps Logistics Bases at either Barstow Ca. or Albany Ga. I really don't see the Navy finding the need to change barrels while shipboard. They didn't use M1 rifles aboard ship other than maybe standing watch so the chance of wearing out a barrel seems pretty slim. I can't see M1 Garands having barrels changed and proof fired while aboard a ship. Just makes no sense to me.

[Bill Ricca]

The following are from Frankfort Arsenal Small Arms Ammunition Pamphlet 23-1, July 1967. Each round is designated as "Cartridge, Caliber__, Test, High Pressure, M_.

1. Caliber 5.56mm, M197, 70,000 plus/minus 3,000 psi., Ord. Part Number D10533839
2. Caliber .30 Carbine, M18, 47,500 plus/minus 2,500 psi., Ord. Part Number B6176267
3. Caliber .30, M1, 67,500 psi., Ord. Part Number B6016308
4. Caliber 7.62mm NATO, M60, 67,500 plus/minus 2,500 psi., Ord. Part Number C7553703
5. Caliber .45, M1, 22,000 psi., Ord. Part Number C6000502
6. Caliber .50, M1, 65,000 psi., Ord. Part Number C5544097
7. Caliber .50, Spotter, T251, 55,000 psi., Ord. Part Number D10534770

There are special powders used for high pressure test cartridges. The pressure alone is not sufficient. The cartridge pressure must have a certain pressure increase rate (known as pressure curve) which copies the standard cartridges, but with the higher level as specified.

[Ramboueille]

So then if the barrel is good like im told by the people who have inspected it in person then the barrel would have been changed out at higher up and not at company or battalion level. Im learning something new with the info you guys are giving. Now was the Navy to the same specs. as the Army when it came ot all that? Gene said he was in the Navy and stamped barrels just like this one aboard ship.

On current note:
Being a Company armorer in 2008 we had a civi team come in and change barrels in my arms room on a few M4's but alot of 16A4's were changed up cleaned up by them.

Jay,

The "P" mark is for a reason: Tested with a high pressure proof round. This is not done manually but in a firing fixture because of the danger involved. I know of no instances that the Navy has these aboard ships and they would have no reason to during WW2 . They weren't infantry units, they were maritime sailors. These firing fixtures are of the highest echelon equipment. This whole story does not contain any logic whatsoever. Please post any marks found under the rear handguard.

[DaveN]

Question, Why would someone go to the trouble of forging a barrel and leave off the most important stamp, the maker ie. SA,WRA, HRA, LMR,IHC. I know all are not WWII but you get my point. And I can't remember if IHC made barrels....oh I digress.