Bitsa's - What to do with them?

[jss]

Just a question on this subject. When you speak of "Bitsa's" are you referring to rifles who have had major parts of the barreled action like bolts and barrels modified or changed by us slimy civilians or would even replacing wood and small parts that got butchered or removed put it in this category?

Good question. I can only go on what I have learned so far from experienced collectors and the opinions vary enormously. A "bitsa" from what I understand is one that has literally been put together(presumably in the civilian world only, because if it was done by the military it would been stamped and be "collectable" and be of significant interest???) from parts lying around or salvaged from other defunct rifles, in order to create a rifle that effectively did not exist before.
Apparently this is quite common practice and as long as it is safe and sound then that's fine. But as far as collecting is concerned, it is seems only to be worth the " sum of it's parts" (but perhaps valuable as a de-act??).
Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a system of markings for civilian gunsmiths to add to the military ones in order to retain "service history". I imagine a rifle going through FTR might have had many parts exchanged but presumably with barrel,action, bolt, magazine, all from the same maker??????. Or would that make many FTR'd rifles "Bitsa's"?.

What exactly does make a rifle NOT interesting to a collector? I suppose the rarity of all matching original condition means collectable but perhaps for some of us the" bitsas" are MORE interesting and certainly cheaper. They are also perhaps very necessary in order for the collectable ones not to get worn out and turned into guess what.

Experienced comment for the uninitiated please!.

[Gingercat]

What exactly does make a rifle NOT interesting to a collector? I suppose the rarity of all matching original condition means collectable but perhaps for some of us the" bitsas" are MORE interesting and certainly cheaper. They are also perhaps very necessary in order for the collectable ones not to get worn out and turned into guess what.

I made the mistake of agreeing to buy a rifle after just viewing images by email. It looked great in the photos, but on handling the rifle in person, the first thing that made me cringe was the large 'DP' stamps in the wood (none on the metal). It was a classic 'bitsa' - 1904 dated receiver, with a replacement BSA (South African) barrel. The nose cap had a different serial to the receiver - so did the rear sight. The bolt matched, but was obviously a replacement, with modern stamping font. Obviously a dealer or civilian owner had made up the rifle from various parts and used 'DP' furniture (complete with volley sights) from another rifle to make it look authentic.

As a shooter great (headspace was fine) and the barrel had a very good bore. As a 'collectable' rifle, no value to me at all! I sold it pretty quickly to someone less concerned about originality than me and fortunately got my money back. Lesson learnt - I always inspect weapons in person first now, before agreeing to buy anything!

[Rumpelhardt]

I guess my problem is it would appear that I'm just not a collector in the classic milsurp definition of "collector" Their monetary value does not really interest me as I don't as a rule sell firearms once I buy them.
My interest in these rifles came as a culmination of interests. First an almost life long interest in both World War 2 equipment and bolt action rifles in general. Second an interest in most things mechanical particularly cars, guns and aircraft. My interest in Enfield Rifles comes as much or even a bit more from the rifles them selves as it does from their history so Bitsa's don't as a rule bother me personally as long as they look descent and function safely and reasonably well. I can definitely understand why some one interested in them mostly for their historic and or monetary value would not want one though.

[Peter Laidler]

I wonder how you'd categorize rifles (and everything else too.....) that's ever passed through an Armourers shop in its life. We didn't care about re-using woodwork or changing bolts or rebarrelling or even re-using part worn barrels.......... Brens were a good example of fitting part worn pairs of barrels, different types of wood. Same as No4's.......... So, we fitted a Savage barrel to an XYZ rifle or a part worn XYZ bolt to a BSA sniper.

Are these bitza's. Wait until I tell them in the Armourers shop tomorrow while they're fitting Nottingham barrels to Enfield made SA80's with MCF pistons into H&K upper receivers. No, maybe I won't......... I won't even think about GPMG's

Don't forget all you purists out there that the ONLY time a rifle goes into an Armourers shop is because it's got a fault. Then only one of two things will happen to it. It'll be backloaded - UN fixed - OR it'll be fixed and returned to the armoury. And I never met an Armourer who searched through a box of pistons to find a BSA piston to fit into a BSA rifle - or a DE piston to fit into an Enfield. It just doesn't happen...............
Maybe Tankie or Son or Skippy are prepared to elaborate on when they last rummaged through atray of spare parts to fit an Enfield part to an Enfield made SA80 or FN part to a Belgian made GPMG

[newcastle]

Effectively there's no way of knowing whether parts were fitted at an armory level from the spares bin or just changedout in civvy street. Question for Peter is, if you replaced a bolt on a rifle, would you guys have even bothered re stamping the new bolt with the rifle serial??

[Rumpelhardt]

I should add as a post script to my above post that living in the U.S and in a relitivly rural and slightly more politically conservative state I don't have the firearms ownership restrictions a lot of you do (yet). If I did this would likely change my views on this slightly.

[Peter Laidler]

Q: Would we mark a new or replaced bolt with the rifle number? MOST ABSOLUTELY AND DEFINATELY YES. It would have been properly matched and fitted and then examined by the out-inspector before being released.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Thank you Peter for emphasizing what ought to be obvious to everybody: that the aim of an armorer is to to make the weapons serviceable. Not to match up every little non-critical part for collectors. Fortunately for practical shooters, the British and Americans did not stamp the rifle number on every part. But the Germans did.

Now I cannot imagine that any German armorer in the later stages of the war, as quality deteriorated, trigger guards were being made of stamped metal, and finally last-ditch "Volkssturm" rifles were produced (or should one say: perpetrated) would have cared a hoot about matching numbers while the growing disaster was engulfing his country. But there seem to be some collectors who would regard it as his duty to have ignored the bombs raining down and search through the rubble to get everything nicely matching for their satisfaction 70 years later. Such people need a reality check.

To cater for these expectations, it appears that in some countries one can freely purchase what can only be described as forgers tools - replica arsenal and inspectors stamps, for which I can see no legitimate use. And where one can buy such items, there are a surprising number of "all-matching as-new" K98ks on offer. It's just strange that I don't see them here in the country where they were made. Hon y soit qui mal y pense and all that. But if it makes the buyers happy...

Patrick

[enscien]

Don't forget also that component manufacture was farmed out to numerous sub-contractors. For FTR a rifle would be stripped down completely and worn out components replaced whilst others would be refinished. Whilst major parts with serial numbers such as bolts and action bodies would be reunited, the others would just be the first to be picked out of the component tray when the rifle was re-assembled.
If your 'bitsa' is nothing special why not get it de-activated? It would cost around £70 (maybe less if it has a good barrel which can be traded in exchange for a worn out one!), but you can then display it at home and handle it and you also have something which can be sold without undue restriction, probably at a profit.

[muffett.2008]

Did I hear someone swearing? Deactivated?