Special LB 1943

[Peter Laidler]

I often sit and ponder just how you would give a rifle away without a serial number. It would open up an absolute pandoras box of mischief.

That would mean, in effect, that anyone could 'liberate' an unnumbered rifle - or even TEN rifles, mark one - or even ten - up and......... and........ Then in 50 years time, 10 totally unaccountable rifles slowly turn up. Sorry to sound a bit cynical and all that but without supporting documentation (and SURELY there MUST be some.......), I could have Montgomery's .38 revolver in an hour

[jmoore]

You might be surprised how many serial numberless rifles and pistols turn up in the US. Up until 1968 it wasn't a problem, IF the firearm never had one in the first place. Removing a S/N has always been "bad". But not having one- not so much- until post '68. 1911s seem to be the most "common".

Perhaps in Canada it wasn't so different?

[muffett.2008]

I have the vaguest recollection (and before you smart B's chime in about Old Timers) of watching a show recently on the Long Branch rifles and there was a bit about a presentation to this bloke.

[Peter Laidler]

The Canadian REME kept unnumbered bodies at their Base workshops as replacements. So on that basis, with a deft bit of accounting and paperwork, there could be several HUNDREDS of unnumbered rifles out there. Each one specially presented to someone. Indeed a pandoras box. But have no fear.........., I am half way through owning Monty's revolver. Just the last line to engrave

As a matter of interest JM, what happens if an unnumbered postol or rifle turns up nowadays?

[Lee Enfield]

The Canadian REME kept unnumbered bodies at their Base workshops as replacements. So on that basis, with a deft bit of accounting and paperwork, there could be several HUNDREDS of unnumbered rifles out there. Each one specially presented to someone. Indeed a pandoras box. But have no fear.........., I am half way through owning Monty's revolver. Just the last line to engrave

As a matter of interest JM, what happens if an unnumbered postol or rifle turns up nowadays?

Canadian polititions have made a practice of decrying the "Americanization of Canada" while slavishly copying the poorer ideas of the USofA. Here serial numbers were not required on new production non restricted (long guns) firearms until @1969~ totally coincidental to the implimentation of GCA68 in the US.

Handguns and Machine Guns (restricted weapons) at the time were usually issued a serial number starting with the letter designator of the RCMP Division they were located in: F1234 in Saskatchewan, K1234 in Alberta, O1234 in Ontario ect.

In Canada this was fine until they started to register all firearms, so they developed the solution: Now they issue you with a "sticky". A "sticky" is an oval of clear plastic with a registration number on it. It is meant to be attached to the firearm to act as a perminant replacement for a serial number.

The downside is that it is illegal to deface it or remove it, but it melts in the cleaning products usually used to clean firearms, and rough handling often results in the sticker tearing....

[Bullseye4mkI*]

Hey All,

I'm not worried about the provenance of this rifle. My Grandfather was well known in the community, being a 50+ year Rotarian and holding various civic posts after the closing of the Canadian Arsenal. In the 60's when Ottawa ordered the closing of the Arsenal, he went a la "Mr.Chips goes to Washington", along with a local politician at the time, ex NHL-er, Red kelly, to Otawa to make a presentation in effort to keep it operational. Not only for the workers, but also because it was the last Federal Arms Manufacturer and thats a big piece of the pie for a young country to give up and outsource...(They gained a reprieve for a time. fyi-last contract completed was for .45 pistols destined for an island nation)
My Grandfather was a good man who, although viewed these rifles as tools to accomplish a job, he took extreme pride in any work that he did. He was 92 when he passed away about 14 years ago. If he knew you guys took such an interest in these weapons I know he'd enjoy talking to you for days and filling in some blanks and telling you about the Holy Grails that went into the furnace!

I'm not in the market to sell this gun so I'm hoping we can
refocus for a sec on the rifle itself and it's technical aspects in regards to it's relation to an issued LB '43 No.4mkI*. If you saw this gun with no back story and were documenting for yourself?

As to it's registration; due to the fact my Father is a civil servant, it should be up to date on all registries including the 'new' CDN long gun registry. Although I haven't seen the 'sticky' as described, I can get more info on this subject if your interested!

Muffet- ANy info on that show would be much appreciated!

He and my Dad collected guns in the early 50's-60's, most pre-1900. The only ones that came out off LB are the No.4 and a H&R 20ga.- both presentation pieces. So, much as I wish he got one of everything they ever made and every trial, X rifle and prototype, he just wasn't thinking ahead

[Peter Laidler]

Please don't misinterpret what I or anyone is saying Bullseye. No one is doubting the integrity of anyone but you can surely see the point that I am making. Being numberless, there could be 10 (or even more.....) similar rifles in circulation 'somewhere' each with a similar story. And without paperwork or supporting documentation, the further down the road it goes, the more fragile it gets. And to be honest, the original recipient is not here to verify anything.

Which leads to an answer to a question you half asked. Technically and visually, it looks like it's a standard and pretty well original factory LB No4 Mk1*. The small-arms collecting world (of which I am not one of I hasten to add....) is a fickle bunch...... Not just fickle, but if I dare say so, they're NOTORIOUSLY fickle and without documentation, it's value is that of a good No4. They have a saying that is regularly quoted on this (and other I suspect) forums. Buy the gun and not the story. But if there is documentation and Muffer can come up with the video, then you're quids-in as we say.............

Like I said earlier - and I hope you realised, it was just in fun - that I am now the owner of Monty's fully engraved revolver

[Bullseye4mkI*]

All good Peter, no foul! I know the adage of the gun, not the story. I shared the story out of guilt for not being able to hand over all the serial number records of every LB gun ever made to you guys
It really is a riffle that wont be leaving my hands till death if even then?! I was truly trying to refocus on your opinion of the actual piece and its technical history....
Regardless I'm much obliged in all instances!

[jmoore]

As a matter of interest JM, what happens if an unnumbered postol or rifle turns up nowadays?

If it shows no sign for having no number- ever- then it's not a problem. There's a blue million .22rf rifles and all sorts of shotguns around with no numbers. So another few firearms (of military origins or no) with "N/A" for a serial number doesn't faze the ATF in the least. Just so long as it's pre-'68.

Bullseye4MkI*, sorry for the highjacking of your thread. If you wish to show close up photos of the areas that would be expected to have been numbered, just make 'em clear enough to show the machining marks in the finsh- if any. I'm curious as to when the presentation was made.

[Peter Laidler]

There is another side aspect to these 'special' rifles that I have glossed over before on this forum. When these rifles go to ground, many years later, that same one OR, regretfully, another has a funny habit of turning up many years later. I mentioned the story of a 'special' M1 carbine which apparently went to ground in 1944. Lo and behold, now there are TWO identical examples. One in the UK together with all the usual documentation that you'd expect and the other, elsewhere.