No 8 Rifle

[303 Collector]

I have a No 8 rifle with the serial number W53. It was made by Fazakerley in 1951.
I have been told it was either a trials rifle or one of a batch made for an officer training school.
As the No 8 rifle was approved in 1948 the trials rifle explanation cannot be correct. If you assume the serial numbers started at W1 and my one was the last one made, that would make 53 rifles, which sounds like a lot of guns for a training school.
Has anyone seen another W serial number No 8 or can offer any information on this rifle?
Thanks.

Information

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[Peter Laidler]

I have been an Armourer since 1963 and while I ain't seen them all, I have seen one or two and never seen a factory serial number other than the usual A or DA or the UE68A type serial number range. However, I have seen them recorded as anything that might look remotely like a number that is on the butt socket so just maybe..................., but don't hold your breath!

A photo would help

[Thunderbox]

I've got "W4" at the moment. Story that I hear passed around (was it repeated on this forum?) is that these were built at Woolwich.


My rifle is a rather crude rebuild, so most of the provenance is lost. The butt socket carries "F50/ CR324", but in a different font/age to the sidewall engraving.

It seemed to me that perhaps these No8s were built by someone in the civilian from No5 receivers. However there is no trace of a previous set of markings, and the "W4", whilst suspiciously "clean" compared to the stamped butt socket marks, does appear to be electro-pencilled rather than engraved.

[Peter Laidler]

Yep, you can't get any clearer than that. But it's definately a Fazakerley 1950 ex No5 body. But so far as small arms, Woolwich was just another Base workshop albeit a very small one and civilianised much earlier than occurred later to the big REME workshops - as opposed to a small arms manufacturer. Interesting.........

We did have stripped down No8's converted into sub calibre adaptors for some of the tank 120mm main armaments but thet retained the usual serial numbers. Not the greatest success as I recall

[Thunderbox]

The story(ies) I've heard say that Woolwich built both No5s and various SRb No4/ 7.62mm target rifles for military and works clubs in LONDIST and Woolwich garrison. I have seen one or two full-bore target rifles around with a Wxx rack number stamped into the wood - again allegedly from a Woolwich garrison shooting club.

I suppose its feasible, given that Woolwich would have had loads of parts available, and that all of these rifles would be simple screw-together jobs and don't involve any actual manufacturing processes.

[Peter Laidler]

Good point Thunderbox, but on the basis that Woolwich Base Workshop was the same as, say, Catterick or Aldershot or Warminster, then they wouldn't have access through the stores system of the 'master component', in this case, the body as this part was never available through the Ordnance system. The strict non-availability of the master component prevented the manufacture of small arms by anyone. If they were, you could end up with a situation like the unnumbered/unaccountable LB rifles. Standard No8 rifles were available to any unit. Maybe the W serial number No8's deserve a bit more investigation but I doubt that they were made up by a REME workshop for reasons I've given. Mind you, there could be quite a few out there if we've got number 4 and 53 already!

I can't see any unit being allocated 50+ No8's for any reason so that would eliminate all Army units as they'd be allocated from Ordnance in any case. Even the big training regiments that I can recall would only have 12 or so. I think that they were allocated for a project. Clearly there is no previous designation or number under the W mark.

The big Base Workshops would manage units 'private' stockholdings (we called it the PRI stores), such as shooting team No4's and especially Army/Navy/RAF Cadet forces who had 'private'/usually ex WD weapons such as my sons old school who had 6 or so telescope-less No4T's that were used as accurate target rifles with PH5C sights by the shooting team............. But I'm going on a bit!

[303 Collector]

Try as I might I cannot post pictures even if I follow the tutorial.
My rifle is very neatly engraved on the action side wall ".22 No8 MK1" with the number "W53" directly under it. On the butt socket it is stamped "F51 CR324"

I will keep trying with the pictures.

[Thunderbox]

I can't see any unit being allocated 50+ No8's for any reason so that would eliminate all Army units as they'd be allocated from Ordnance in any case. Even the big training regiments that I can recall would only have 12 or so. I think that they were allocated for a project. Clearly there is no previous designation or number under the W mark.

50+ would be the sort of batch size you might get for a sub-cal trainer, given the limited number of ranges/units that such a system would be scaled for. If the barrelled receivers were prepared for a sub-cal system that subsequently got cancelled (e.g. the main weapon became obsolete or the sub cal was thought to be pointless), that might explain why there is no Mark Number applied, nor any appearance in EMERs or anyone's memory. Candidates might be 105mm (tank), Mobat/Conbat/Wombat, 105mm Pack/105mm Light Gun (tank action role), etc.

If a few more "W" rifles turn up, it might be possible to deduce something from their appearance. E.g. if they've all obviously been restocked, then that might be an indication that they left service as barrelled actions only.

[5thBatt]

Page 567 TLE
"Shirley's .22 No.8 MkI trainers of 1950-52 are usually 'A' prefixed to a five-digit number, although a sample at the pattern room is serial numbered W16."

[muffett.2008]

Now that's stirred the pot.