"Grandad's gun from the war"

[gsimmons]

Peter can we see piccies of the G-10 Omega watch?

[blazer91]

There were a lot of "treasures" smuggled home after the wars. Most were captured or found on the battlefields and got past the security checks somehow. I wrote of my grandfather's "bringback" in the M1 Carbine thread. Each passing year sees the loss of connection to the wars as the vets pass on and I believe it is important for relatives of the vets to learn as much as they can (first hand if possible) so that they can pass this history onto their descendants.
Jim

[Frederick303]

Captain shore in his book “With British Snipers to the Reich” discusses the issue of taking home “issue rifle” trophies in the British Army. He was a Captain in an anti-aircraft unit that landed on D day plus one if my memory is correct. He served through to the end of the war in North-West Europe and was eventually mustered out in 1946, if my memory of this book is correct.

Now in the book he discusses that his unit was at one point equipped with the P14 rifle. They turned them back in and received the No 4 MK I with the MK II sight. Not caring for this kit, he convinced his CO to allow him to retain his personal rifle issued Pattern 14. How this was allowed I do not recall, I do not think the complexities of this are discussed in the book. I seem to recall Capt. Shore (who might have been a lieutenant at the time) was the unit’s firearms training office or something to that effect, so he might have had some consideration that was not normally allowed to line officers.

In any case when they landed Capt shore saw a No 4 MK I sticking out of the sand with a short butt. He picked it up and had his batman (spelling?) clean it up. As it was a picked up trophy rifle it was not on the unit’s register of rifles. He mentions it was a good shooting rifle and he was fond of it. I seem to recall him discussing making some long range shots at some Huns with this rifle.

At the end of the war he mentions trying to purchase his unit issued Pattern 14 rifle and found that there was no way he could do it. He reluctantly turned it in. He mentions that a serious interest in firearms was looked at with suspicion by the powers that be. Certainly a serving officer found it impossible to purchase his rifle and he tried.

Somewhere later in the book he mentions the No 4 MKI he found on D-Day he still has, and gives its serial number. I think the book as written in 1948 and as he would have had to register it to have put it in a book, it would appear that arms not on the units register could be at times imported, at least if one was an officer. I know here in the US of A at the end of WWII Officer’s lockers were not given the scrutiny that an enlisted mans possessions were by customs.

I could be wrong but I do not recall him discussing purchasing a revolver. I kind of think he was issued one. I am not sure about this, but I gather that the last time officers were expected to purchase their own revolver was in 1919, at least that is the latest date I seem to recall any reference to this. Certainly in the 1920 firearms act, officers were allowed to retain their revolvers without a permit, if they had no ammunition. If they wanted to hold ammunition they were required to get a permit. This exemption seems to have been removed from the 1937 firearms act revision.

I mention that as I seem to recall in one of Colin Greenwoods books on U.K. firearms control form around 1970 that a large number of pistols and revolvers, ex-service were turned in during various firearms amnesties in the 1950 to 1960 time period. The numbers were quite large; at least that is my recollection. How large I could not hazard a guess. That would imply that there were large numbers of trophy arms/firearms off the books so to speak that were brought back by returning soldiers (or retained by Home Guard) without legal sanction.

---------- Post added at 11:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 AM ----------

One last thing relating to Shore’s No4 MK I rifle. If I recall correctly, starting in 1946 it was possible for a UK NRA member to purchase the No 4 MkI ex-military stocks for use in competition. So there would have been no legal prohibition on him getting his no 4 licensed, if the local police would allow a variation to FAC. He was not a competitive shooter and is somewhat unfavorably inclined to “Bisley Tigers” as he calls them, so how he got the variation approved post-war is something that the folks in the UK could perhaps explain.

[Simon]

I recall being at a friends Gunshop a few years back and him showing me an absolutely pristine 1916 dated S.M.L.E. and a complete Tommies Battle Dress and Webbing. He told me that a couple of weeks previous someone had walked in and handed in "a gun and some other bits and pieces they'd found when clearing Grannies house". It seems that Grannies brother had been conscripted late in the war and had come home on leave prior to shipping out to France when he contracted Flu and died. His Rifle and Uniform where put in the cupboard until the authorities came to collect which they obviously never did.

He sold everything on over the next couple of months and has regretted it ever since!

Another tale I was told first hand by a WWII veteran was about his return on a troop ship to Liverpool. He said that there was a huge amount of "War Souvenirs" being Horse traded amongst those on board when rumours began circulating that the MP's and Customs would be conducting a very thorough search before anybody was allowed to disembark. By all accounts the amount of weaponry and munitions that ended up going over the side and into the Mersey was astonishing. To add insult to injury there was no search after all and he has always wondered if the rumours of a search where a deliberate ploy?

Cheers,

Simon.

[Peter Laidler]

Up until the mid 70's any serving soldier could purchase from the MoD a No4 rifle for the princely sum of £20 on condition that '......he had good and valid reason and a certificate authorising him to do so issued by the Chief Constable of the area'

If the rifle he wished to purchase was held by the unit, say, as his shooting team rifle, it was earmarked for him until a new replacement rifle was issued from Ordnance and then while the new rifle was entered in the quartermasters ledger, the old rifle would be given to the buyer and the QM's ledger cross referenced with the invoice from the paymaster who received the money and the buyers authority to possess the rifle.

It really was as simple as that. I know someone who did it and still has the Mk1/2 rifle to this day. Quite how they managed to do all of this without the need to proof or go through the rigmarole of dealers is quite beyone me - but it worked! Oh yes, quite a few No4T's escaped via this method because the Equipment Regulations (I'll quote the act and section if anyone really needs it, but it's now been superceded) didn't distinguish between the various types. Mind you, that was a legal method whereas just 'liberating' one was probably frowned upon.

[Frederick303]

Capt. Laidler,

When might have this sales practice started? I am curious if it was in effect right after WWII or did it only state once the No 4 was surplus to needs when the L1A1 was adopted?

I ask as is it possible Capt. Shore’s inability to purchase the P14, which was covered in depth in his book might be due to another reason? He was very sad that he could not purchase the rifle. I have read that P14s were sold on a wide basis to the trade post WWII, so I am curious if the practice existed post WWII, was it simply that the sales order only included No 1 and No 4 rifles?

Was the L1A1 ever available on a similar basis? I also ask as I note in A.J Parker catalogs from around 1960~1962 they advertise the FN-FAL, but state that such rifle is not eligible for use on the NRA course. Here isn the US when the self loaders were baned there was an article from a fellow that had a correct L1A1 that he had to have deactivated. I always wondered how that rifle got into the trade, so to speak.

Some years ago a fellow from Australia posted the terms under which a new Lithgow L1A1 could be purchased by members of recognized military rifle clubs. I do not recall the exact time period, but I think it was from around 1976 to 1983 or 1987 (Roughly, going from memory).

Any further insights you might have on this topic would be of interest, as always.

[Thunderbox]

IIRC No4s became available for civilian purchase in 1949. I think that this was the first year that large quantities of No4s were released for surplus sale.

[Peter Laidler]

TBox is right. No4's were available for purchase by shooters within the Army from 1950 - but if TBox says 1949, then that's good enough for me. While we had a VOCAB/Stores price for an L1A1 rifle, it was never available for sale to members of the forces through the official channels so far as I'm aware. I saw loads of ex UE and UB L1A1 rifles in private hands when they were allowed (plus the usual AD's as well.....) and was told that they'd come from the Singapore and/or Malay Army/Police. That is most certainly true because there were pooled Ordnance stocks there and some of the L1A1's that were sold had the Base Ordnance Depot markings on them

[HOOKED ON HISTORY]

There were a lot of "treasures" smuggled home after the wars. Most were captured or found on the battlefields and got past the security checks somehow. I wrote of my grandfather's "bringback" in the M1 Carbine thread. Each passing year sees the loss of connection to the wars as the vets pass on and I believe it is important for relatives of the vets to learn as much as they can (first hand if possible) so that they can pass this history onto their descendants.
Jim

I was recently given a photo album my Grandfather kept from his time at Camp Pike Ark. during WWI. There is not a single caption on any of the photos. My dad was somewhat better with captions in his photos from WWII but their are a couple of mystery photos of some asian women with no caption. He took that secret with him. I am doing my best to fill in as many holes as I can for my nephews.

[peanuts]

I remember my mother telling me about her return voyage from India in 1946 where She was stationed as an officer during the war.

As the ship called in to various ports on the long voyage home all her friends handed her their trophy pistols as they were too nervous to try take them off the ship with them in case they were searched and couldn't bear to throw them overboard. Presumably they would have been in big trouble if caught taking pistols home .

When my Mother's ship docked in England She tipped the lot overboard including her own.

many years later in the 1990's I purchased a mint Star pistol (1911A1 lookalike) ,kregsmarine stamped which had been found in the possessions of a Polish RAF flyer when he died. Clearly some managed to return home with pistols at least.