Use of Brit SMLE No.4 Mk.1 T by Aust Army in WWII

[Brian Dick]

Pretty much the same as the L115 Peter except in 7.62 NATO instead of the big .338 LM. I'd love to find one of the original S&B 3-12x50 PM telescopes with the Mildot too but I'm probably grasping at straws. I have the current USMC variant on it now.

[trooper554877]

Brian,
What are you in particular after?
I have most of the pam (photocopy) and I am sure what i haven't got Son will have access to the info.

Cheers
Ned

[Brian Dick]

Ned,

I'm not sure what publications are available for it. I don't have any of the genuine Australian user handbooks, EMERs or training pams. Any enlightenment would be much appreciated. It took me a few years to accumulate the proper CES short the original telescope.

Regards,
Brian

[Surpmil]

I know that in WWII we (Australian Army) used the SMLE Mk.III* HT, old MkIII T, the P14 and even the US / Dutch Johnson rifle, but I have an record of interview with an old 9th Aust Div sniper who, in Tobruk, 'pinched' a couple of Brit No.4 Mk I Ts for sniper use. They were impressed with their performance, esp. the No.32 scope they had, and brought them back to Aust. However, I can find no photographic record of their use in Aust Army. Anyone have any info about the use of the WWII Brit sniper rifle by Aust Army?

Glenn

Is the sniper now deceased?

[Peter Laidler]

In Malaya during the 60's, the resident Aust and NZ Battalions were equipped with No4T's but I never saw one with Australians outside there and even then I assume that they were only issued there because most of the weapons except the M60's were from pooled UK stores. I never saw them issued either, not even on range day jollies. Not a lot of scope for sniping there I hasten to add. John Cottrell our Armourer Sgt was familiar with them because he was a pom and had been a NS Armourer in the pom Army before he was transported to Oz! I never saw a No1/SMLE-T issued to any of the Battalions either and didn't realise that they were still current at the time!

[Bruce_in_Oz]

Not too sure about serving spanners passing around copies of current equipment manuals; especially ones with the word "RESTRICTED" printed on each page.

However, AI themselves may have something: Sniper Rifle Systems - AE, AW, AX, AX50 AICS Sniper Rifles | Accuracy International

A pdf of the "user manual" for the commercial model appears here: http://stevespages.com/pdf/accuracy_...ational_ae.pdf

I will ask the one bloke I know with a full (commercial) kit if he coughed up for the service manual when he bought the thing.

[Son]

In Malaya during the 60's, the resident Aust and NZ Battalions were equipped with No4T's but I never saw one with Australians outside there and even then I assume that they were only issued there because most of the weapons except the M60's were from pooled UK stores. I never saw them issued either, not even on range day jollies. Not a lot of scope for sniping there I hasten to add. John Cottrell our Armourer Sgt was familiar with them because he was a pom and had been a NS Armourer in the pom Army before he was transported to Oz! I never saw a No1/SMLE-T issued to any of the Battalions either and didn't realise that they were still current at the time!

Peter. The AIF had no snipers at that stage. The capability had been deemed as not required anymore, so they stopped training them. They were used to a fairly broad extent in Korea, but the rifles were returned shortly after and there was no more sniper training until the early seventies. Once it was decided to re commence sniper training, the school here was set up to do it and in the absence of a rifle more recent, they dragged out the Lithgow No1 MkIII# HT again to train with, even though the rest of the army had the SLR. It all culminated in the trials that saw the PH M82 adopted.

In Ian Kurring's book "From Red Coats To Cams" I cannot recall seeing mention of any snipers or equipment used by our troops in Malaya, but then, during Vietnam they were aligned closely with the Americans and utilised their gear. I have spoken with Ian at great length on the topic, so I would think any use of the 4T in Malaya would not have been official... But, as usual, I am ready to be corrected on this.

[Peter Laidler]

I'm sure that I have mentioned this before but in SVN 8-RAR had a small sniper section or at least 'trained' snipers run by Cpl 'Taffy' Bond that will be on record. I think son has hit the nail on the head about 'true'[ sniping in the 60's Australian Army. The No4's we had were definately an official issue because the Poms had the same until they withdrew in 1967.

Interesting thread

[gwahlert]

Yep. I take the story from Australian's in the Boer War through to recent ops in Timor, Afghanistan and Iraq. Have received good support from our sniper teams in the battalions, and from our Inf Centre sniper master.
Glenn

are you including the present day?
regular force snipers and or special forces snipers?
you would be surprised at the modern implementation of the sniper in the battlespace.
and I would reckon the kill count would outweigh the old fellas
cheers
Ned

[Surpmil]

I know that in WWII we (Australian Army) used the SMLE Mk.III* HT, old MkIII T, the P14 and even the US / Dutch Johnson rifle, but I have an record of interview with an old 9th Aust Div sniper who, in Tobruk, 'pinched' a couple of Brit No.4 Mk I Ts for sniper use. They were impressed with their performance, esp. the No.32 scope they had, and brought them back to Aust. However, I can find no photographic record of their use in Aust Army. Anyone have any info about the use of the WWII Brit sniper rifle by Aust Army?

Glenn

The No.4 sniper rifle first went into action in North Africa, but the desert warfare was not really suited to sniper operation and those equipments sent there could not be maintained due to the lack of necessary information, and no one had been trained in their use. The field units that tried the rifles experienced difficulties with the sights and chose not to burden themselves with this extra equipment, and so the sniping role was largely disregarded.

The British Sniper, I.D.S., p. 109.

Almost all the sniping lessons of South Africa and WWI had been forgotten by WWII it seems, except by those who had been directly involved. From what I've read, they gradually rebuilt the craft until by the end of the war it was about back to the level of 1917-18 in terms of training and organization. Until then, except in specialist or elite units, most No4(T)s seem to have been in the hands of "marksmen" for want of a better term, though I have never seen any evidence that the rifles were allocated to the best shots in a unit in any systematic way.

It would make perfect sense to me that troops like the Aussies, who (like other Dominion troops) had a reputation for thinking for themselves and making use of what's available regardless of KR&Os, would have 'liberated' some No4(T)s if they were sitting in some ordnance depot unused. Especially considering how well their snipers did elsewhere, with Pattern 18 scopes that must have been even more "unsuitable" for the desert! Very doubtful that the rifles would have been sent back to the UK after whichever units it was turned up their noses at them.

Also makes one wonder what happened to the eight No3 MkI*(T) rifles that were supposed to be on issue in every British infantry battalion? Were they left to languish in some depot as well? I've never seen a photo of a No3(T) in the desert except for the Australians at Tobruk. (Some of us might know of men who served in the infantry in the desert who could be asked if they ever saw a sniping rifle in their units...?)

It's one of those ironies of history that the forward thinking advocates of mechanization and automatic weapons in the Army in WWI and between the wars tended to discount the rifle's (and the bayonet's) value in reaction to the obsession with "rifles and bayonets" of Haig and the other donkeys. A case of the baby getting thrown out with the bathwater. Thus sniping fell unwanted and unloved between the two camps it seems, although some who remembered seem to have tried to interest the authorities in the late 30s, judging by the articles in the NRA Journals of the time.