Lee Enfield Ammo

[muffett.2008]

Now that would be too easy............and take the fun out of it.

[TonyE]

Gentlemen, let's get some accurate answers please!

The manufacturer has been correctly identified as SAAF No.4, Hendon, Australia, but these are ordinary, everyday Ball Mark VII rounds.

I think when the OP said they had white or silver tips he was talking about the complete bullet as the "tip", i.e. they had cupro-nickel silver coloured envelopes rather than copper coloured GM ones.

With regards to the other suggestions, if they truly had white tips they would have been either G Mark IV (short range Air Service tracer) or G Mark VI (smilisr to G.IV but for Naval Service) and both would have included the designation in the headstamp. Both are flame tracers and not smoke tracers. The Buckingham incendiaries (culminating in the B Mark IV) were alternatively known as smoke tracers.

The white tipped Italian drill rounds that Peter mentioned would have a "BPD" headstamp. These were purchased for use by cadets and the flutes were added to the cases in the UK.

Regards
TonyE

[NRA]

A picture is worth a thousand guesses

I like that, do you have any copy rights? I would like to use it again some day.

[Peter Laidler]

Let's be fair to all Tony.......... We got there in the end - and to be fair to all, we got there with that scant info before you did!

Off subject for a bit. Where did the info about the flutes on the Italian white tipped drill rounds being impressed/fluted in the UK come from? I ask because we had a few hundred packets of them, still sealed in their Italian Ordnance(?) wrappers. I had loads of the rounds but binned them in preference for a similar amount of still sealed 1951 Armourers dummy

[jmoore]

Both are flame tracers and not smoke tracers. The Buckingham incendiaries (culminating in the B Mark IV) were alternatively known as smoke tracers.

Now that's a bit of info I've never seen. Never heard of "smoke tracers" before! Incendiary rounds, yes, but...

BTW, found a full box of tracers (48rds) and about 15 more on chargers.

[browningautorifle]

smoke tracers"

Three types of tracer, smoke contrail, red fireball and bright red fireball. The not so bright fireball is for dark condition so as not to blind the firer. Different tip ident too. Orange, purple and red respectively.

[Peter Laidler]

Someone I know who excavated the wreckage of one of the downed dam busters Lancasters found a few of the strangely marked dark conditions tracer among the wreckage and didn't know what they were initially.

[jmoore]

Found the Tracers to which I referred earlier. In actual fact it was a bit over 60 rounds.

Added a quick Photo reference thread in the Ammunition and Reloading forum (link below):

Cartridges, Tracer, .303 Inch, G. Mk.VI (Photo Sampler)

[muffett.2008]

Attachment 34842Posted this pic once before.

[TonyE]

Let's be fair to all Tony.......... We got there in the end - and to be fair to all, we got there with that scant info before you did!

Off subject for a bit. Where did the info about the flutes on the Italian white tipped drill rounds being impressed/fluted in the UK come from? I ask because we had a few hundred packets of them, still sealed in their Italian Ordnance(?) wrappers. I had loads of the rounds but binned them in preference for a similar amount of still sealed 1951 Armourers dummy

You are right, I missed post #7 from my good friend jonnyc that said the rounds in question were ordinary ball. Not sure about the royal "we" though...!

I believe the Italian drill rounds were purchased by the MoD from Conjay Arms Co. who had bought them unfluted from Italy and then added the flutes. I was told this was done in the UK but it is possible Conjay had it done to their order in Italy. Picture attached is of the original round before fluting and the finished product.

Jim - Your comments about tip colours etc. apply to U.S. ammunition, mainly 7.62mm NATO. In British service there were only Bright or Dark Ignition .303 inch flame tracers.

These were

RL Tracer - first tracer in 1915. Only traced white for 50 - 100 yards
VIIT - Bright ignition 800 yards
VIIG - Bright ignition to 800 yards
G Mark I - revised title for Mark VIIG above
G Mark II - Bright ignition to 1,000 yards. Red annulus
G Mark III - Naval Service. Bright ignition brilliant trace to 800 yards. Red annullus
G Mark IV - Air Service. Bright ignition to 550 yards. White tip and red annulus.
G Mark V - Naval Service. Dark ignition to 50 yards, bright to 550 yards. Grey tip, red annulus.
G Mark VI - Naval Service. Renamed modified G Mark IV. Bright ignition to 550 yards. White tip and red annulus.
G Mark VII - Naval Service. Dark ignition to 100 yards, bright to 1,000 yards. Red annulus.
G Mark 8 - Land and Naval Service. Dim to 100 yards, bright to 1,000 yards. red annulus and more rounded bullet profile.

The so called smoke tracers were the four marks of Buckingham incendiary ammo, but this name was dropped later in WWI. Post war Kynoch continued to use the term on their Buckingham rounds exported to many countries. Typical packet label attached.

Regards
Tonye