"Cogswell & Harrison" S&W Revolver Question

[scbair]

If you look very carefully at the front of each cylinder, you will see a concentric circle about 0.5mm out from the "hole" in the front of each chamber. What was done was to bore out the cylinder and then insert a sleeve in each chamber that brought it down to the S&W Special diameter. ... The ramp plus the sight on top of it often has a Parker-Hale marking if you look closely. The normal proof was the 3.5 tons sq in, rather than the 4 tons sq in of the 38 Special. However, as mentioned earlier in the string, the metal will definitely hold the "normal 0.38 Special" loading. Dave_n

Wow! That's fascinating. I'll take a close look at the cylinder face this evening. If mine was modded via the addition of these sleeves, I can confidently use .38 Specials without fear of case failures.

Thanks, Dave_n and others for this valuable info. For an aging and (I thought) experienced shooter, I still learn something new every day!

[Johnny Peppers]

Many of the .38 S&W Victory models brought back to the U.S simply had the chamber bored out longer to fire the .38 S&W Special cartridge. This led to the .38 Special cartridge being bulged considerably, but otherwise worked.

[emmagee1917]

Western Cartridge Co. had a load for the .38 S&W called the .38 Super Police which used a 200 gr. Lubaloy bullet. It was safe to fire in any Colt, S&W or other medium frame revolver. It doesn't matter what the powder charge is as long as the chamber pressures are kept within the limits of the standard .38 S&W load. The K frame S&W is absolutely safe to fire with with the 200 grain S&W cartridge.

What you say is completely true. However , the 38S/W , over here , is handicapped , not by the S/W k frames , but by the cheep small frame "tip-up" revolvers . It is loaded to be safe in them. The super police would be safe in any medium frame revolver . I do not know of it's exact loading , but if equal to the 1.6-1.8 gr loading it would be safe in tip-ups too. If it is the same as the 2.7 gr loading ( ie 38/200 ) , it would not be.
The early British fear was that the .360 diam. 38/200 would split the end of the bbl ( even though it had been " squashed " by the 5-inches of bbl before the end ) because of it's thinness and being bored for .358 diam lead ( .357 jacketed ) bullets .
Anyway , all 38S/W loads , 38/200 loads and my 2.7 load are safe in medium frame revolvers in good , safe condition . The latter two are not safe in tip-ups. BTW , my loads use " Americian " .358 rather than British .360s , although both are offered.
Chris

[Johnny Peppers]

Where is over here? The U.S. probably had more cheap revolvers made in .38 S&W than any other country. Over the years they have been used with every .38 S&W cartridge made. Other than more recoil the 38 SUPER POLICE had no more pressure than the standard 146 grain load which was loaded to higher velocity.

Without knowing which powder, the grain load means nothing. Bullseye is an extremely fast burning powder while Unique is a slower burning powder. With the 146 grain bullet 2.0 grains of Bullseye has a velocity of 710 fps while 3.0 grains of Unique is only 590 fps.

Someone had run out of things to worry about if they thought a low power pistol load would split a pistol barrel.

[breakeyp]

Cogswell & Harrison was purchsed by Interarmco (more commonly known in US as Interarms) about 1959 and the staff was put to work converting surplus arms into sporting configurations that they hoped would sell better in the US ( 1959 Guns Magazine article) . The Smiths were converted to .38 spl and to .22 rimfire. Some had adjustable sights. They added the short ramp front sight. They also made a sporting version of the No.1 rifle adding a stamped sheet steel cover around the front sight to make it a "ramp" front sight and they painted a black tip on the shortened forend to make it look like an ebony tip. There were no makings on the rifles to indicate C&H conversion on the ones I have examined.

[emmagee1917]

Over here is USA . The powder is Win 231. I do not know the load data for 146gr round nose , but for 148 gr WC , max Bullseye is 2.7 for 748 and Unique is 3.4 for 747 . If you up'd them to 4gr and 5.3 gr without knowing what you were doing , you'd be heading for a world of hurt.
It's kinda like the high speed 38 special ( 38-44 ? ) that came out just pre-.357 Magnum . It was in a .38 special case but made for the N frame ( IIRC) type guns . If you put them in J frame type guns , you'd have problems.
The 38/200 is to the .38S&W the same as the .38-44 is to the .38 special. So , yes , any 38/200 pistol can easily shoot any .38S&W load , and yes , any 200 gr bullet can be loaded to be safe in any .38S&W pistol.
It's just that the Victories and Commandos were chambered and marked for .38S&W and barreled to Americian specs. and someone in Britian realized this and erred on the side of caution.

Do you remember those square cement block things the used to make the artifical harbors after D-day ? They had pumps to pump the water in and out. One sole person claimed that the pumps would not do it. Everyone else thought he was crazy and an alarmist . On officer finally listened and demanded a test ( there had not been one ) . The pumps failed , so all had to be changed. If not for the lone voice , the Mullbery's would not have left England.

Chris

[Johnny Peppers]

Hand loaded cartridges was never a concern for the British Military, so overloads don't even enter into the picture. Is there any source of information that a 200 grain or later 180 grain FMJ bullet ever split a S&W Victory barrel?

The .38-44 cartridge was designed for revolvers made on the N or large frame S&W, as it was a .38 Special loaded to 36,000 psi, or in other words, a .38 Special Magnum cartridge. It wasn't loaded too long, as too many were used in regular .38 Special revolvers with bad results. The .38-200 was just a heavier bullet in the .38 S&W loading.

Now, are we changing the discussion to pumps?

[emmagee1917]

No , no barrel end was ever split. I would not think it would have been because the .002 oversized lead bullet would have passed through several inches of steel barrel by the time it got to the thin part and would no longer be .002 oversize .
The 38/200 was NOT a heavier bullet in the .38 S&W loading . That has been my point all along. It uses a heavy bullet AND more powder . It IS the 38-44 of the .38S&W world and needs to be treated as such. Just because they share the same or close to the same brass case , does not make them the same.
I have tried to say this from every angle I could , I don't know how else to put it.

The pump story was to show that experts are not always right. The person who caused the counterbore of the barrels was wrong . But , if he would have been right and it was not done and guns blew up ???
Chris

[scbair]

Many of the .38 S&W Victory models brought back to the U.S simply had the chamber bored out longer to fire the .38 S&W Special cartridge. This led to the .38 Special cartridge being bulged considerably, but otherwise worked.

I checked, and mine is one of these. No evidence of any chamber liners, and .38 S&W rounds drop effortlessly into all six chambers (the same rounds won't quite fit into my .38 Special revolver's chambers).

Of course, .38 Specials also drop into the old 1905, indicating the chambers were lengthened for the American market. Don't think I'll be using Specials in it, though....

No problem, though. As I mentioned earlier, this wasn't purchased as a "using" weapon. I purchased it for its historical and interesting features. I'll fire some .38 S&Ws through it, then clean it thoroughly, and take it out occasionally for a short "exercise" session.

[Dave_n]

That is a pity that they only bored out the 38 S&W. My converted version will not chamber38 S&W only 38 Specials which is why i made a rather careful inspection of the cylinder's front and found the sleeving. Enjoy it in 38 S&W. I load a 360 diameter 180 FP lead head i 38 S&W cases from Starline and they run to POA at 7 to 10 metres in my Enfields, Webley Mk IVs and a number of 1905s of various ages. Dave_n