Does M1917 index same on throat wear gauge? Getting 11+ TE

[mdoerner]

Hi Guys,

Got a fairly decent M1917 Eddystone today. S/N 1251XXX with an E 11-18 barrel. MW is 2. TE is off the chart (to be expected for a Canadian training rifle I suppose) but I'm wondering does the throat gage for the M1 Garand and M1903 have the same reference point on the M1917? I'm sure I have throat wear, I just didn't think anything greater than 10 was possible....

I'll post pictures soon. It's a CAI import, and the import letters are filled in with bluing. I think the receiver and barrel have been re-blued (under the hand guards there is no polishing). I'll post pictures soon. Only non-Eddystone part is one of the hand guards is a Winchester. Stock has been slathered in Shellac or Laquer, so a stripping will be done soon. Canadian proofs on stock, but ther some awesome figure to it (yes, I know, if I don't post pics, it hasn't happened)

An answer to the throat wear question would be appreciated. Pics will be held for ransom until answer is provided.....

Mike Doerner

Information

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[45B20]

Mike
Army Ordnance specifies one throat erosion gage be used with the M1917 Rifle, 'Gage Breech Bore Taper Cal..30 C-3940'. That is the same throat erosion gage used for the M1903 Rifle series, (this is also the same gage used on the Browning Machineguns). There is/was a close copy of this gage being sold on eBay. Brownells and a few others also sell TE Gages that can be used.

45B20

[Chuckindenver]

stone axe was selling some nice ones as well.

[Calif-Steve]

I don't think the stone axe works. That may be why your are getting an 11 reading.

[Chuckindenver]

hmmm, could be,
i know the M1 Garand gauge will give a false reading.
i use a GI issue 1903 gauge

[mdoerner]

Mike
Army Ordnance specifies one throat erosion gage be used with the M1917 Rifle, 'Gage Breech Bore Taper Cal..30 C-3940'. That is the same throat erosion gage used for the M1903 Rifle series, (this is also the same gage used on the Browning Machineguns). There is/was a close copy of this gage being sold on eBay. Brownells and a few others also sell TE Gages that can be used.

45B20

Not the answer I was hoping. I have a Fulton Armory gage, and my Garands gage 2.0 and 2.05 TE repectively with it. The wierd thing is the rifling in this barrel is for the most part, SHARP. Unless the previous owner monkied around with a chamber reamer, I don't understand why my readings are so dang high.

So the Garand, Springfield, and M1917 will all....wait a minute. They can't gage the same.

The Garand's barrel/chamber are exposed while the Springfield and Enfields are offset because the reciever ring is offset from the chamber so the bolt lugs can engage. I'll have to see about getting to borrow someone's M1903 gage. Thanks for making me think this through.....

Mike Doerner

PS I'll post pics as soon as my $@#&ing wife can "find" the camera.

[AlReiter]

Stone Axe Engineering also makes a gauge for the M1903 and based on 45B20's post above, that gauge should also work for the M1917. An M1 Garand gauge will definitely not work for TE, while it will work for MW. You can contact Stone Axe Engineering [Steven Matthews (fatmatthews2@hotmail.com)] and ask Steve directly to be sure. He'll also send you a spec sheet and ordering information.

[mdoerner]

[RC20]

I know this is old but topical and I think I can offer some guidance if not exact precision (pun) . I am not an expert but I feel its generally accurate (another pun). Take it for what its worth and no flaming please.

The Steven Matthew gauge for TE and MW is a GUIDE not hard cast in stone precision (Stone Axe is gone but I believe Steve is still doing this and I have a query into him as I need one).

My brother has one we have used for both the 1903 and the Model of 1917.

There is a minor difference in the relationship of the bridge distance for the TE part between the 1903s and the 1917s. My take is if you have a 3 on the Matthews gauge is actually closer to a 2.5 (not a big deal as its a guide)

We have three 1917s we have done checks on. Basically they are 2 or 3 on the bore dependent on if you use the -1 adjustment factor that seems to be out there (still checking that as it seem obscure and no one seems to know for sure). TE is 1 to 3.

Lattes one is actually a TE of 1 and a Muzzle of 1.75 (or 1 if you subtract)

Regardless, these are CONDITION GUIDES, not precision. In this case you will not get an 11 on one end and a good bore on the other unless its been shot with blanks (they eat out the chamber but leave the muzzle ok so that's most likely what you have and it probably will not shoot well)

As long as the values are below 4, you should have a decent shooting gun. 6 or more and its question.

If I can nail it down a bit better I will but a 3 is fine and a 5 is iffy but may shoot well.

And each mfg had its own take as to how to taper or not into the lands (as well as end them) so you may encounter differences there. The Eddystone seems to be very good but the other two are re-arsenled with new barrels and look not have been shot. It may just be mfg preference differences and they are the same level of use (or lack of)

And in no case does a good MW and TE value guarantee a good shooter. It just guarantees it has not been shot a lot but other factors may cause it to be a poor shooter.

More TE wear up to a point is not as bad as a shot out bore but a bore of 11 is not going to shoot well (we know, we have a 1903 that was host with blanks with a great bore but a horrible TE and it keyholes anything but low velocity 200 gr rounds)

[RC20]

I did a bit more reading of Steven Matthews manual and exchanged emails with him.
Again, SM says its a guide and it means just that. He also is clear its for the hobbyist and thats both honest and I appreciate how clear he is about it all.

The SM (former Axis engineering) gauge per Steve is not intended for or calibrated for the 1917. I did request he look into it as it does appear to be close of if not valid.

In our specific case, the Eddystone I have, actually measure a MW of 3/4 (I had missed that the first mark was zero). The other two 1917s measure 2. (MW). I would say that validates its usefulness as a Guide to MW.

The TE on the Eddystone measures 1. That corresponds with the MW and the gun appears to have been shot very little and it never underwent went any Arsenal work. The stock screws are still in the original staked position (you can't break them loose) and the gun has the original dark black finish (and not reimporting finish). Its an excellent baseline.

The other two were re-arsenaled, probably post WWI from the appearance of the parkerization and subsequent wear. Both either had some use or the TE and MW due to mfg difference are slightly different (barrels are original as near as I can tell as dates are withing a month of receiver mfg) Both are 2 on the MW and 2- to 3 TE.

So, while Steve Matthews is right to say what he does because he has not either calibrated it or done a specif 1917 gauge, I am more than confidant that it works very close to if not absolutely correctly for the intent (Guide) and thats to give you a good idea what the TE and MW are on the 1917s.

Hopefully with the popularity of the 1917 on the increase he will offer up the calibration offset value (if any is really needed), but I am convinced that its good enough for what we need. I am inclined to a calibration (or confirm its so close as not to need one) as that would the Gauge perfect to use on the 1903s and 1917s.