Bren Mk2/1

[Peter Laidler]

Not only is there a spec for The A5, it features in the NoD BR's AND their parts list AND we used to see them coming in from the Navy and Marines based down at 'Western District'. And when the A3's are upgraded, there is even an EMER of how to upgrade the bodyside markings and part number.

It's all called the theory and the practice of life. Looks like I'll have to dig out my workshop papers

[Peter Laidler]

Mmmmmmmmmm. Sorry to be a tad contrary KG and BP but a very quick trawl through some of my untidy old paperwork including one Army Code 62189 issued in October 1985 and issued under the authority of the Director General-Defence Quality Assurance Office at...... and you ain't going to believe this........ Royal Ordnance, small-arms division Enfield Lock and another, 62188, both clearly states that the L4A5 is a version of the L4A3 gun and later details the updating process.

From that and the fact that they were approved for Land AND Naval service (only the A3 but this was extended later to include the A5 and declared the A3 as obsolete for land service but extended for only Naval service. I don't understand all that Naval jargon/waffle either but.....) in Feb 60 and the A5 approved only for Naval service in April '60, I can only assume that, er......... they were approved and exist!

I KNEW that I'd seen all this in the NoD BR's somewhere! But nice to clear it up. Next question

And while we're on the subject of Mk2/1's.........

Enfield refurbished tens of thousands of needy Bren guns of all marks for the War Reserve programme. This included converting Mk2 Brens to what was initially called at the time ‘UPGRADE SPEC’. While it is quite possible that other factories converted Mk2 Brens to Mk2/1 specification, the only Mk2/1 conversions encountered by the author are those from Enfield and BSA Guns. The BSA conversions being marked with the usual ‘ll/1’ marking and ‘BSA-51’ or ‘BSA-52’. Enfield records show that they converted 10,200 Mk2 guns to Mk2/1 specification during the FTR programme. The programme was carried out commencing with the outbreak of the war in Korea in 1950. Many batches were overhauled until the .303” gun FTR programme ceased during 1955, just prior to the 7.62mm X10 programme. Quite how many guns were converted to Mk2/1 specification by BSA and Army Base Workshops is unknown. If it was a further 10,000, then it is still only equates to some 15% of the grand total. Interestingly, while the BSA FTR marks have been encountered, it would appear that these guns were converted on their behalf by Midlands gun-makers Westly Richards who were instrumental in the procurement, refurbishment and re-sale of thousands of war-weary Brens to emergent nations after the war. It is unlikely that a BSA FTR marked gun was for British Army war–reserve stocks.[COLOR="black"]

[Brit plumber]

I'm really confused by this, I have the details of a number of L4A3 marked guns, A153 is 1962, A4492 to A5438 is 1965 and A6180 to A7082 is 1966, so the first L4A3 (Marked) guns appeared in 1962, 2 years after the A5 was approved. Yet there were no L4A3 in existence to modify to A5 spec. So why did they make A3s when they could have gone straight to A5 spec?

Perhaps I'm missing something in the serial numbers, can anyone add to the list below?

L4A2 1959 to 1960, approx. 10,000 guns
L4A4 1961 to 1962, approx. 5,000 guns (These maybe actually L4A2, but I've not personally observed an example)
L4A3 1962 to 1967, approx. 8,000 guns (No L4A2/4 produced in this time)
L4A4 1968 to 1977.

[Peter Laidler]

I can only repeat what I have read and seen. And then, all I can actually do is quote the books and references. Take it for what it's worth! For example, we already know that the book is very slightly wrong because they say that the A3 is ONE barrel while the A5 is TWO when we know that numerically, that flies in the face of common sense and previously adopted practice. AND the Navy parts list and their equivalent of the EMER. The most important question of course is the one that nobody's asking and it's this. Do you or I REALLY give a xxxx? Maybe this is the difference between the theory and the actual practice. A bit like what they teach you as apprentices and in the EMER and what ACTUALLY happens

But, as a little rider to this and I was hoping someone would/might mention it is that the Enfield paperwork records say that they commenced the Mk2/1 programme in 1950. But my friend has one distinctly marked 1948. Theory, practice and substantiated fact again!

[Kev G]

The most important question of course is the one that nobody's asking and it's this. Do you or I REALLY give a xxxx?

.....well I do.
If no one gives a xxxx there wouldn't be much point in the forum.



ATB Kevin

[Freeland]

Just came across this thread.
I own a working MKII/I, think it is an RSAF. As far as I can tell only the bolt handle and bipod are of the early type. When I took it apart for cleaning I discovered quite a lot of proofing marks and also the barrel was renumbered (electro). Butt stock is of the type II.

[Peter Laidler]

The RSAF Mk2/1's are marked/engraved on the right hand side of the body with FTR/XX (year) and on others it's D-E FTR/XX and others FTR D-E/XX It'll also have a new proof mark that'll coincide with the year of conversion/modification. There weree a couple of conversion programmes so there could well be other markings too.

Incidentally BP and KJ, I have just unearthed my old L4A1 and A6 EMER. The A6 EMER is dated 1979 which would indicate to me that A6's were still doing the rounds then. I recall that a late batch of ejector/HOD blocks were made to refurbish needy A6's (...., and presumably any A1's still in the system but I really doubt that there would have even been any old A1 spec or even A2 spec steel barrels left in the system so they'll all be A4's, 5's and A6's. Just my thoughts out aloud!)

[Brit plumber]

The RSAF Mk2/1's are marked/engraved on the right hand side of the body with FTR/XX (year) and on others it's D-E FTR/XX and others FTR D-E/XX It'll also have a new proof mark that'll coincide with the year of conversion/modification. There weree a couple of conversion programmes so there could well be other markings too.

Incidentally BP and KJ, I have just unearthed my old L4A1 and A6 EMER. The A6 EMER is dated 1979 which would indicate to me that A6's were still doing the rounds then. I recall that a late batch of ejector/HOD blocks were made to refurbish needy A6's (...., and presumably any A1's still in the system but I really doubt that there would have even been any old A1 spec or even A2 spec steel barrels left in the system so they'll all be A4's, 5's and A6's. Just my thoughts out aloud!)

That would make sence Peter as I have some RAF training notes from RAF Cosford from the 1980s and it mentions the L4A1 aswell as the L4A4 so assume that the A1 (A6) and A4 were in service together. Lets face it, the RAF wouldn't really need an LMG (Except RAF Reg) so why give us the up to date kit. I remember when I joined in 1995 that there were still L1A1 parts knocking around (Sadly no rifles) and I remember clearing out some scrap from the armoury at Cosford and in amongst it were brand new L4 breech blocks, newly coppered L59 bolts and loads of L2 parts.

[tombear]

To lurch back to the Mk 2/1, if any one in the UK has one and realy wants a correct to wartime Mk II Daimler I'd be happy to swap Currently it's in pieces as I lost interest when I started concentrating on post war stuff but I could slap it back together, there's also thecorrect UK Mk II bipod to go on, something I never got around to doing.

ATB

Tom

[Peter Laidler]

Why don't you just convert your deact UP to Mk2/1 spec. An absolute doddle