Boer bought a P14. Please can you assist

[Patrick Chadwick]

... Its fairly lightly used probably because once past 500yds an accurised no 4s shoots better and hence no3s were not competitive...

I would be grateful for some clarification. For the same bullet, velocity and, to be quite sure, twist - which must surely mean the same external ballistics - if rifle A groups tighter than rifle B at 100,200,300... yards, then I am puzzled as to how rifle B can then become superior at longer range. As far as I know, bullets have no memory. So 500 yards downrange the bullet does not "know" which rifle it was fired from. All it "knows" is the external ballistic situation at the moment.

[ssj]

I agree its a bit mystifying. I cant clarify it as such, this is what has been reported to me by old NZ 303 shooters, all in their 80s, seems to be to do with barrel resonance and the ability to accurise a No4 (bit of an art apparently). So where I am at right now is, the Std no4 in good nick ie a no4 mk2 shoots about 1 3/4inch MOA and a Pattern 14 is about the same. An accurised no4 can apparently be got down towards 1inch MOA, where the pattern14 "resists" such endeavours. I am at present modifying / re-accurising a no4 mk2 target AJParker no4 to see what I can get out of it and I have an ex-target no3 as a comparison (which seems to be around 1 1/2MOA) , also I have a std Parker Hale no4 mk2 but it will take me a while to come up with some results to see what is what as I lack the time right now.

[kryten]

There is also the big variable, the shooter. If both the No.4 and the P14 were locked into a Ransom rest or something similar, so as to take the shooter out of the picture. We could test both at different ranges both using the same ammo and get an accurate picture of the physical accuracy. would love to see the results of a grouping test using this method.

[ssj]

The std accuracy is well published.

On top of that you also need to ensure 2 equally good barrels etc...

Its quite simple the no4 won more competitions, hence its almost certianly the more accurate gun.

regards

[Surpmil]

But for the Boers the rifle would never have been designed.

It looks like the stock has been recently stripped which IMO is a pity since it means the loss of many decades of patina which matches the finish on the metal nicely, whereas a stripped and oiled stock does not.

Very interesting to hear that .303 Epps is or was popular out there.

I've heard tell that you are only allowed one rifle, one shotgun and one pistol in S.A. these days; true?

[Billya]

Hi Surpmil, Must agree it is indeed regrettable that the stock has been stripped and I can find no markings on the stock at all. I have since received the P14 and love it for what it is. I have only shot some old military ammunition received with the rifle and have not been disappointed with the accuracy. I will attach a pic of my last few shots (100 Meters) once I figured how to adjust the PH5B sights. After the holidays when our range has re-opened I will update the grouping shooting fresh factory ammunition. I intend to reload so hopefully that grouping will be improved. There is no real restrictions on the amount of firearms you may own in South Africa as long as you can provide proof of proficiency and active membership with registered associations for the category of licence you apply for. I am classified as dedicated hunter status and therefor have several hunting rifles and shotguns.

[Terrylee]

As a matter of interest there is a document in the South African Military Archives which records the stock of P.14 Rifles in the country as at the 31st July, 1945. There were 19,383 of which 2,907 had been brought over from the UK by the R.A.F. Training Establishment.

There are a few M.17 Rifles in South Africa. The attached photo is of one of them:

Attachment 59991

[RC20]

The std accuracy is well published.

On top of that you also need to ensure 2 equally good barrels etc...

Its quite simple the no4 won more competitions, hence its almost certianly the more accurate gun.

regards

While I do not know anything about accuracy different between the Mkr 4 and the P14, I would think overall the P14 would be as accurate or more so, but maybe that's me and my bias in regards to the P17 (yes I know not officially right but you all know what I am talking about!)

that said, I have read a number of experts who have stated that some bullets will stabilize and shoot more accurately once out past a certain distance. I don't get it but I am also not an expert. so its possible to shoot 1.5 MOA at 100 yds (or meters!) and get 1.25 at 400. Odd.

A lot of funny things happened with rifles and shooting.

[Patrick Chadwick]

... Its quite simple the no4 won more competitions, hence its almost certianly the more accurate gun ...

False logic that totally ignores statistics. Like "most Nobel Prize winners are men, therefore men are more intelligent than women".
By the time the No. 4 was in production, most P14s had been through a war, withdrawn from front-line service and relegated to the colonies, sold to the French in Algeria, Home Guard etc. So the number of competitive P14s was already low in comparison to the number of as-new No. 4s, and today it is much worse. What I have seen as P14 relics is dire, but I had little trouble in finding an as-new No. 4.

[RC20]

Fully agree. Getting accuracy out of the SMLEs seemed to be a serious slog where the P series were pretty normal.

As I recall the role they often put the P14 into was a sniper. Of course by the time WWII rolled around that was not a very good option and made do with what they had.

Of course that's my pretty uniformed opinion.