HELP - ID this prototype (?) LB sniper scope & mount

[Claven2]

A good friend of mine owns a gun shop and this walked in last week. This is the same shop where a few other hitherto-unreported LB experimental snipers and items have shown up - some of those pieces are in the MKL already. The Ottawa area is home to Connaught Ranges where a LOT of the LB trial stuff was evaluated in the 1940's.

Anyhoo... this one came with an original No.32 mount that has been modified to use only one screw per ring (lightened?). I believe an older serial or marking was filed off the side before it was blued. The knobs are both stamped with C-arrows.

The scope itself is entirely in the while. Reticle is a german post and crosshair with a fourth vertical line that stops short of the point of aim - makes it look sorta like a duplex reticle without the fine crosshair in the middle.

Everything is machined - it looks like a toolroom-made optic. Still n the white everywhere, including the internal and under lens rings, etc. IT just never had a finish applied.

Came in a legit No.32 scope case.

What do you guys think? It's simply too well done to be a basement job, but not refined enough to be a production item. The number of tiny screws and dovetail fits is incredible. All the lens retainer screws show evidence of tiny scribe lines along the axis of the scope tube - as a part-time machinist, it screams "toolroom prototype" to me.

Information

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[Lee Enfield]

I'm more interested in the No8 tin...who made it? is it dated?

The fact that the front ring doesn't appear to fully grip the scope tube, while the rear ring appears slightly undersized leads me to believe that it is a (fairly) recent assemblage. No one would seriously expect to have done any sort of honest assessment based upon improper clamping of the rings.

Are you sure the rings are real? much of the filing appears to be in places where the cast indian/Chinese copies differ from a real LB No32 set of rings.

My understanding of the 1943 trials reports is that there were a number of Lyman scopes utilized which are (so far as I know) unknown today.

I think anyone who had access to experimental? Lyman scopes from an actual optics manufacturer would not be impressed by this representation.

I am however intrigued by what appears to be windage adjustment contained in the front lense cage ala m.1917

what is the diameter of the scope? Is the scope optically useable?

[bigduke6]

Can't say I know anything about experimental/ trials or prototype stuff, but to me Looks like someones effort to make a scope out of parts, the modification of the bracket is or, I would guess purely cosmetic and am with Lee Enfield regarding the clamping of the scope .... Also the finish I doubt a bare metal finish from the 1940,s would look like that, it would have some kind of patina on it, looks like the emery paper has touched it recently also the smaller diameter tube looks like it has remains of old bluing ?

Just a Shame about the bracket but at least the tin looks in good shape

[Surpmil]

Someone monkeying around in the tool room with rejected parts and left over optics?

[RobD]

"This is the same shop where a few other hitherto-unreported LB experimental snipers and items have shown up". A very faint alarm bell is ringing...

[Claven2]

1) The shop owner knows NOTHING about this scope - it came in with estate guns. Ottawa always sees ex-LB stuff turn up. It's not a fakery thing, a lot of their stuff was sold here out of local crown assets in the 50's and 60's. I've literally seen a dozen+ REL scoped LB snipers at the same gun shop over the years. It happens.

2) The scope rings fit tight, it's a rock solid mating. Sorry if the pics don't show that well. The rings themselves have never been staked and whoever last tightened them left the gaps on opposite sides of the scope for some reason (?).

3) I've seem more real 4T rigs in person than most ever will and I've built a lot of guns too. This is not a home-built scope. It's VERY well made and optically functional. A VERY VERY good machinist and optical technician had to work together to build this.

4) I don't worry re the surface finish. I have guns from the 1870's with finish this unblemished.

Honestly guys, I know more than a little about this stuff - if there was even a remote chance it was recently faked, I would not be asking about it here.

The No.8 tin is totally un-marked (that I can tell) and has what looks like very old lead-based green paint applied to it. Look like 1950's era Canadian Army green. If it has marks in the metal, they are filled with paint and I can't find them.

The reticle moves well when the turrets are turned. optically the scope of correct, but it would need a good cleaning and possibly some element work - I think of the the groups has started to delaminate internally.

[Gil Boyd]

There was a machinist in China churning out scopes and the tins, could be his, can't make out tell tale signs though. Can you see a makers name on the tin, as there will be one on the lid in the central part with a an NSN under it, if it is authentic??

[Gil Boyd]

In addition this is what I put on the site earlier this year re this guy in Taiwan churning out No 32 scopes and the tins too, apparently the sample prices are CHEAP!!:

Gents,
I got a reply this morning from Shawn Hssu of Wayne's Machine shop in Taiwan with a Product list attached, but still waiting for the price list. First thing he asked was how many do I want.......that old question from the Far East. I will pres him for a price on the 4T scope case as a starter.

Anyway, here are his products:

Scope & Scope Mount & Accessory

WM0267A -- Mauser 98 Low Turret Scope Mounts with split rings
WM0272X -- Russia Mosin Nagant 91/30 Scope Mount
WM0361A1~11 -- Mount with Ring and Levers, Griffin & Howe Mount
WM0281A -- Ak-47 Low Side Scope Mount
WM0387A-2 -- PU Mosin-Nagnt Original Rail with Screw Set
WM0361A-12 -- Mount Base Plate, Grffin & Howe Mount
WM0259A -- Mauser K98 Swept Back Mount
WM0175A -- Prong Scope Mount, Tokarev SVT 40 Rifle
WM0268A -- Mauser 98 Low Turret Scope Mounts Closed Rings (九九九九九九)
WM0058A -- Scope Mount with 1/8" Allen Wrench, M1 Carbine ( 九九)

Small Firearm Scope
WM0207A -- Mauser 98K Short Scope Mount (九九98K九九九)
WM0355A-6X -- ZF-39 ZIELVIER 6X Scope
WM0355A-4X -- ZF-39 ZIELVIER 4X Scope
WM0295A -- Shim Kit, Mauser 98 Split Turret Mount 4-Piece
ZF-4 Scope, German G43/K43 Sniper Rifle
WM0358A -- ZF-4 Scope Can with Shoulder Strap (ZF-4九九九九九九九)
WM0260A -- ZF-4 Scope, German G43/K43 Sniper Rifle

M84 Scope for M1 Garand
7312541 -- M1D Scope Mount Base (M1D九九)
7312554 -- M1D(M84) Scope Mount Ring Bracket Assembly
7597774 -- M84 scopes for M1 Garand
Howitzer Scope
8588780 -- M109 Elbow Telescope 1240-00-823-5612
8299680 -- Telescope, Elbow:M92D
7597781 -- Elbow Telescope M16A1D, M101 105mm Howitzer (九九九 M16) 1240-00-759-7781

Military Vehicle Scope
8587340 -- Telescope Panoramic M-115 1240-00-895-9186
8213037 -- Telecope, Panoramic M12A7S
7043549 -- M17 Periscope - repairment
九九九九九九九
6650-00-704-3549

[Warren]

I have seen more than one odd ball scope in what appeared to be Canadian mounts. The scopes were unmarked and no indication as to maker or where they were made.
Until you get inside the scope.
The last odd ball that showed up a couple of years ago had clues to the manufacturer inside the scope. It was easy to see the components were made by REL. I've also found writing on the edge of the lenses that helped establish where they came from and at least somewhere where I could trace a source.
There was a lot of interesting kit made during the trials and I'm just in the middle of checking somewhere between 8 to 10 thousand plates of never seen before microfiche and many of the plates are of the sniper scopes, equipment and trials.
One lucky guy now has copy of the handwritten records of his Canadian sniper rifle trials test.
It is all a matter of time which is the reason I have been scarce on the site.
Too much to do and too little time as researching the microfiche records is very time consuming and hard on the eyes.
Give my regards to Jason.........

[Claven2]

The tin is real guys - it's not a recent reproduction. Frankly I don't give a damn about the tin. It's obvious what the tin is and a quick e-bay search shows us what they sell for.

This scope is not recently made. The optics have been installed so long that the lens groups are delaminating from age. While it looks bright in the photos, the areas where it's assembled are caked in decades of dust and grime.

I know for 100% fact that this scope is not a recent creation, not made in Asia, and not put together at the shop. Did I mention the shop owner is a close friend? He doesn't fake stuff.

There are really only 2 possibilities in my mind:

1) It's put together by a really talented metal guy back in the 50's or earlier who had help from a really talented optical lens guy using some original REL parts mixed with handmade (machined) parts; or
2) It came out of Canadian Arsenals as some sort of experiment, toolroom model to test one or more features, or a trials prototype.

If I can't find any proof that points to option No.1, it will get sold as No.2. Either way, it will get sold - the owner is not a collector - I just don't want my buddy to let a potentially significant treasure go cheaply to some local hunter for a nothing price to do time on a cut-down deer rifle.