New Zealand Carbine

[stevesmle]

Serial No. 1292 should be on a 1902 dated receiver, as yours is a re-dated Lee Metford receiver,I believe that it has retained its original 1894 serial number, and was made up as a spare barrelled action, and sent out to NZ C.1904-05. It is also possible it was renumbered in NZ as a replacement for the original 1292.

[UNPROFOR1994]

Nice one!

I don't recognise some of the markings on the left hand reinforce above the proof marks and below the double arrowheads. Wot are those?

Those are German proofmarks, the Eagle over the letter N is the definitive Nitro proof mark, the single deer antler means it was proofed at Beschussamt Ulm. Normally there will be one more "Eagle over the letter N" proof mark on the bolt.

[glen chappelle]

Where can I look up the data that identifies serial number 1292 to a receiver dated 1902. All of the info in the Skennerton bible seems to tie it in to 1903 as marked.

[englishman_ca]

here are a few images of my NZ carbine. It is much later down the line, Serial No 1292. The receiver appears to be a reused one which leads me to wonder if Enfield were struggling to find enough to complete the contract. I see that there is another carbine currently advertised for sale with a higher serial number than mine that also has a double dated receiver. Another point of note is that most of the NZ carbines around seem to be DP marked.Attachment 59269Attachment 59270

Just my opinion, but I believe that at the time that the orders were placed at Enfield for the carbine, production was winding down on or may even had been finish and the forging line shut down for the carbine style receivers. The Sht LE was the new form of action at Enfield and was their focus. BSA continued to make long Lees and carbines, but for commercial sale.

So being frugal as always, the Enfield factory had stocks of usable carbine receivers on the shelf. First batch of 1000 as ordered were made on the original contract purpose built receivers. These have simple LEC on the butt socket band. The order had an additional 500 carbines added, so the second batch was consisted of about 440 receivers originally destined for LEC mk.I carbines. The balance of about 60 carbines were built on old stock Lee Metford Mk.I cav carbine receivers updated by removing the D-ring and boss.

All good receivers, just the markings are the only real difference. I don't think that they were struggling to find parts for the contract, they just made prudent fiscal action. These arms were not for first line British troops, Colonials often got the lesser of a deal.

'Magazine Lee-Enfield Carbine, Fitted to Take the Pattern 1888 Bayonet' as it was officially known was a design that actually had been around since 1892. BSA even made a commercial version complete with the 88 pattern Rigby cap taken directly from the new (as then) Lee Metford Mk.II rifle. So the design was there, just waiting for an order. When New Zealand came knocking and needed a short rifle for their mounted troops, it was a perfect opportunity for Enfield to unload the stocks of soon to be obscolete parts with this ready to go design.

The Magazine Lee-Enfield Carbine, Fitted to Take the Pattern 1888 Bayonet was issued to NZ troops but quickly became obscolete. Many were reissued to police and then later in their life handed off to Cadet Corps. This is when they were made DP I believe. Some specimens that I have handled are rebarreled with a miss matched serial number, DP marked barrel. No other DP markings on the gun.

So receivers were re-used, rebarreled and remarked at the NZ end, not at the factory.

A very limited number of these carbines here in Canada, so I can't speak from seeing a large sample. Hopefully our New Zealand members can offer some insight.

[5thBatt]

'Magazine Lee-Enfield Carbine, Fitted to Take the Pattern 1888 Bayonet' as it was officially known was a design that actually had been around since 1892. BSA even made a commercial version complete with the 88 pattern Rigby cap taken directly from the new (as then) Lee Metford Mk.II rifle. So the design was there, just waiting for an order. When New Zealand came knocking and needed a short rifle for their mounted troops, it was a perfect opportunity for Enfield to unload the stocks of soon to be obscolete parts with this ready to go design.

There are some here in NZ who are thinking just this & that the NZ Carbine is not a NZ specific pattern, just that NZ was the only one to order it.
http://www.armsregister.com/articles/carbines.html

[Roy]

The NZ carbines must have been very cheap, since only a few years later NZ was ordering state of the art SMLE MK1's for the mounted rifles. Then by 1909 were ordering SMLE III's for the MR's. it seems the MR's were seen as the cream of the NZ military forces. The infantry were still being supplied with MLE's in 1914.

[stevesmle]

Cost of the NZ carbines was as follows, first batch £2/4/11 1/2 each. Second batch, £2/9/9 each.
Cost of SMLE Mk I in 1904-05 was £3/18/5 each, and a Cond Mk II £3/5/2 1/4 each from Enfield and Sparkbrook, the cost from BSA &LSA was £4/10/0 each for the Mk I
Cost of SMLE Mk III in 1908 was £3/6/3 each, and Cond IV £2/10/11 each, from Enfield, and £3/16/0 each from BSA & LSA.

[englishman_ca]

Not quite the same scenario, but the Royal Irish Constabulary carbine is another example of the resourcefulness of the Brits arming troops.

The Sht LE replaced the cavalry carbine for first line troops. So there quite a lot of these obscolete arms being returned to stores. The RIC was in dire need of rifles for their coppers, something that they could use with fixed bayonets for crowd control.

So the nosecap and barrel band of the cav carbine were tossed and the woodwork of the forearm patched and modified so that a reworked rifle nose cap with its bayonet bar could be fitted.
The only new production components on the conversion were the handguard to allow the left hand to grip around the hot carbine barrel for bayonet fencing, and a bushing fitted to the muzzle to accept the standard P1888 bayonet.

Perfect way to use up the considerable stocks of pre-used carbines and give them a second service life. A way to use up inventory of rifle nosecaps and a way to get rid of P88 bayonets. Not sure as to the cost, but obviously a consideration. They were not sold on a contract, they were free Govt issue to the Force, so it was a frugal way of meeting a need.

The RIC re-armed with the Sht LE after the war and the carbines were given back in the 1920s eventually to be disposed of through the British gun trade. Still lots of them around, they are a great little gun.