No5 Mk1 from Old Western Scrounger

[Peter Laidler]

I think someone out there in forumland found the commercial equivalent of grease XG 297. Maybe he can come in with the answer POL (Petrol, oils and lubricants) was a specialised field in the REME but not one of mine although I did spend a few days on an associated course at Castrol in Swindon. XG340 is good old graphite and I learned there that graphite grease was not the same as graphited grease. No, I never understood it either!

As someone who's learned 'in theatre' the importance of grease between the wood and steel and the effects of not having it does, I look on eyes agog when people spend ages getting rid of it. It's there for a good reason. Not just a GOOD reason but a xxxxxxg good reason I say!

[intellivore]

Well, Most Knowledgeable Elders, there looks to be a bad pit, the depth of a ballpoint tip or so, in the right side of the barrel. Being the only one of its kind, I'm relieved, but will be taking it to a 'smith I know for evaluation. In the event that it's deemed irreparable, unsafe, etc., what should I do for a replacement? I can't find anywhere with those hen's teeth No5 barrels. Should I just fill it with TIG, chop a No4 tube and re-barrel it? If I do that, it eould be taken in to a barrel maker and the original flutes cloned onto the replacement.

Seaspriter, I am going to be documenting all the things I'll be doing to the rifles and bagging the papers in the buttstock or folding them into de-greased oiles for each rifle.

Are you talking a thin coating of grease on the metal, the wood, or both, Captain? I got her as a hunting and target rifle, to put my father's No4, a 1970's sporterized job that just stripped her of her wood, thank Galena!, on the wall after resroring her. I'd still shoot it, but the No5 would be my moose-burger-getter, an Ishapore would come as backup.

A local manhood rite-of-passage, oddly enough, involved annoying a Griz to the pont it wanted to tear you limb from limb and killing it in a manner not to dissimilar to setting a spear against a charge.

[Seaspriter]

Well, Most Knowledgeable Elders, there looks to be a bad pit, the depth of a ballpoint tip or so, in the right side of the barrel. Being the only one of its kind, I'm relieved, but will be taking it to a 'smith I know for evaluation. In the event that it's deemed irreparable, unsafe, etc., what should I do for a replacement? I can't find anywhere with those hen's teeth No5 barrels. Should I just fill it with TIG, chop a No4 tube and re-barrel it? If I do that, it could be taken in to a barrel maker and the original flutes cloned onto the replacement.

A local manhood rite-of-passage, oddly enough, involved annoying a Griz to the pont it wanted to tear you limb from limb and killing it in a manner not to dissimilar to setting a spear against a charge.

Captain Laidler will give you the best advice on repairing barrels -- he's a senior British Armourer who knows more about Enfield barrels than a thousand of us amateurs. You probably won't find a No.5 barrel, unless the Old Scrounger has one left over. If you try to clone a barrel with the special Knox forms, you are wasting your money on something that will never be worth the investment. Buy a good No.5 instead.

Then take the barrel off the sporterized No.4 (if yours is like most, it probably had about 2 inches clipped off the muzzle where the bayonet studs are), cut it to carbine length, put a repro flash hider on it, and put it on the No.5 receiver. Then get a full sized barrel for the No.4, which you can now restore with full fore end and handguards.

Glad you had the right of passage with a Grizzly. Mount the bayonets and think of Errol Flynn in the Charge of the Light Brigade. And if you can't bring down the Griz with a bullet, you've still got a chance with the "spear." How about the big elk in rutting season -- they've been known to charge a human nosing in on their love making, imagining we might enjoy the act as much as they

[vintage hunter]

A local manhood rite-of-passage, oddly enough, involved annoying a Griz to the pont it wanted to tear you limb from limb and killing it in a manner not to dissimilar to setting a spear against a charge.

Uh hu, that right there might have something to do with why there's more women than men in Alaska.

[Seaspriter]

As someone who's learned 'in theatre' the importance of grease between the wood and steel and the effects of not having it does, I look on eyes agog when people spend ages getting rid of it. It's there for a good reason. Not just a GOOD reason but a xxxxxxg good reason I say!

Captain, I'm humbled again after realizing, as a car and boat guy, that I know far more about a greasing a car (grease gun and U-joints, grease cups), and preventing seacocks from seizing in my boat than greasing guns. After seeing Brownell's video on greasing an M-1 (which I have), I now realize I've been using oil where I should have been using grease.
see: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/learn/...aspx?lid=16381
Ignorant again! (Lack of grease probably explains one reason why my M-1 Carbine's action is so noisy, while not worn.)

Consulting the 1931 Enfield Instructions for Armourer's (page 6), there is this reference:

3. To prevent water soaking into the stock, and at the same time to give the latter a polished
appearance, it should be well rubbed with oil. French polish or varnish is on no account to be used.
Red mineral jelly should be applied between stock, handguards, barrel and body as a protection
against rust. At stations abroad, a mixture of two parts mineral jelly to one of beeswax will be
employed.

Pardon my ignorance, but perhaps the experts could answer a couple of questions:

First: Is Red Mineral Jelly in the UK what we call Vaseline in the US?
Did XG 297 become the later replacement for Red Mineral Jelly or are they essentially the same thing?

Second: Is Mineral Jelly (or XG 297) used on all interfaces between metal & wood?

Third: How do I know where to use rifle grease and where to use gun oil?
Is it correct to assume that large surface interfaces (like bolt action or sears) use grease and smaller points of contact, like pivots, use oil?
Is it correct to assume that rifle grease and gun oil are used only for interfaces between metal and metal?

( I know never to put linseed oil on moving parts unless one wants to gum up the works) Please enlighten me -- I've never run across these issues other than "put gun oil over everything metal" -- which is now obviously not the right thing.

Many Thanks
Robert

[intellivore]

My No4 only had her wood mutilated, chopped into a short forestock, to just behind the middle barrel band, all handguards removed and the ears removed from the front sight. Bubba didn't have a chance to finish it off. I had it hanging on my wall, spike bayonet proudly mounted, stock chopped, for many years.

If I find a sporterized No4, I will try to snap it up, but my finances are tight. It took me months to scrimp and save enough to get the rifle and order a plethora of parts from Liberty Tree Collectors, Numrich, Sarco and Apex. Then I got told about Springfield Sporters and realized I spent too much on some of the bits and bobs! Se La Vie!

You misunderstand, I am not Alaska Native, I am Scots/Irish/Welsh/Italian/French/German/Iroquois. The family joke was at one point one of the family had ended up on a hill, tomahawk in one hand, rifle in the other, naked, drunk, covered in war paint. they would run down the hill, screaming a warcry, shoot one shot, drop everything and surrender! I joined up as a US Navy Corpsman to avoid that, and do something really useful. I learned of the rite of passage from my wife, herself from here, and why I am here, but from my understanding it isn't practiced any longer.

Sadly I am without the funds to get much more for a long time, the pains of being a student again... So getting a 900.00 GBP No5 from EDF is not an option, and wont be unless I get a winning lottery ticket, can finagle customs, get it imported, hide it from the wife, and put it on an altar!

[Peter Laidler]

The depth of a ball point tip isn't truly indicative or technical enough....... But you better believe me, some of the No5's that came through our workshops were absolutely pitted to buggery (that's an Armourers technical phrase.......) but once they'd gone through the process they were just fine. Caused by wallies taking all the grease off and not replacing it. Just slather it on thick and where it squeezes out, just wipe it off.

Generally speaking, the crunchies don't use grease. That belongs in the Armourers shops. The crunchies use oil. Oil for cleaning and oiling. Grease for preserving

Oil on the moving parts grease between the absorbent wood and the steel and remember this: Blued steel is not a rustproofing. Like the usual Enfield Rifle blackening or what we used to call Browning is simply a controlled corrosion in its own right. And if corrosion takes a hold again, it WILL attack.

POL ain't my forte so all I can tell you is what I know and tell or advise others to follow

[Seaspriter]

So getting a 900.00 GBP No5 from EDF is not an option, and wont be unless I get a winning lottery ticket, can finagle customs, get it imported, hide it from the wife, and put it on an altar!

A really good JC can still be found. I bought a sweet beauty on Gun Broker at Christmas time for $368.
Lee Enfield No. 5 Mk 1 Jungle Carbine #5 : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com

This gun was arsenal refurbished in Grade 1 condition

I have a friend who hunts for good deals in old weapons, and just charges a 10% fee above cost to resell -- he just loves to buy old guns. His time is worth it. I bought a beautiful arsenal refurbished Maltby Enfield in Grade 1 condition from him for only $295 just last month.
Enfield No 4 Mk 1* (Plus) NICE! Great Hunt/Collect : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com

Sometimes he just unloads one of his guns to make room for another. He's a quality guy.

The beauty about Enfields is they are, IMHO, the best "deals" anywhere. Enfields are high quality guns for about the same money you'd pay to by a used Marlin 30-30. Ever since my father bought me my first Enfield when I was 7 years old for $12 or $13 in a sports shop where he bought my baseball glove, I've been hooked on these beautiful works of art that are so filled with both history and heroism.

[intellivore]

So I just got home and used my micrometer, mechanical pencil and some math skills, here's what i have come up with:

The biggest pit is 10 7/8 inches from the crown of the flash-hider, along the right hand side of the barrel, just a hair past the 3 o'clock if you are looking down the sights. It is 0.0885 inches, or 2.25mm in diameter, with a depth of 0.0455 inches, or 1.15mm.

Calculating the diameter of the barrel at that point, approximately 0.750 inches, minus the approximate groove diameter, 0.312 inches, gives me about 0.2190 inches of barrel thickness at that point. Subtracting the pit depth leaves me with 0.1735 inches of metal between the grooves and the deepest point of the pit.

The question now is, is that enough metal at that point in the barrel to be a safe shooter? If not, what is the process that you spoke of, Captain, that helped with the barrels all pitted to buggery? Or is the barrel completely unsafe?

[vintage hunter]

Peter may over rule me on this but I don't see where an area of pitting that small and that far down from the chamber would cause any safety concerns with firing the rifle.
However I do have one Q. Did you clean the pitted area down to bare metal before taking the measurements? If not it may be deeper than first thought, and that could change things.