Springfield Trapdoor Bannerman Special - Might be a Shooter

[dttuner]

So I this little mutt has only been in my hands since last night. However I'm beginning to think she is a shooter due to condition of action and barrel.
Action locks-up tight. No wiggle in the lock either open or closed. Firing pin is free, and no sign of strain or cracks anywhere in the trapdoor joint.
Trigger wiggles front-to-back a little (normal ?).
Best part of the mechanics is inside the barrel looks like a mirror, and rifling is very nice.

I'm trying to understand more about this rifle, and it's quirks.
If you know anything about these oddball parts, how to check for issues, or what I should do next, please leave a comment.
Thanks!

Year of Manufacture: Unknown (1889-1990 ???)
Caliber: unknown
Action Type: Single Shot Trapdoor
Markings:
Large "L" and "15" stamped on top of the receiver.
The barrel at the 12 o'clock position, near the receiver is marked "A"
The barrel at the 6 o'clock position, near the reciever is marked "P Y S" or "P V S" with a strange symbol near the P
The barrel ahead of the trap door is stamped with “V” over “P”, an eagle head, and another “P”
Bottom of receiver is marked "A" and what looks like a metal plug.
The Left side of the receiver is stamped “N.J”.
The trapdoor is stamped “US / SPRINGFIELD / 1873”
Behind the trap door on the receiver is the serial number “479952”.
The lock plate is marked with a single "C”.
The top of the buttplate is stamped “U.S.”.
The barrel bands are both marked with a “U”.
Barrel Length: Unknown
Sights / Optics: Buckhorn rear sight and fixed post front sight.
Stock Configuration & Condition:
Type of Finish: Possibly bright
Finish Originality: Unknown.
Bore Condition: The bore is shiny and the rifling is worn but is still serviceable. There is no rust or erosion.
Overall Condition: The Screw heads are serviceable with only slight disfiguration. The markings are faint in some areas and strong in others.
Mechanics: The action functions correctly, and locks-up tight with no wiggle. Have not fired this rifle.

Issues -
Stock - particularly that it's been cut just under the Buckhorn rear sight. To fix I'll probably need to reinforce the tweo pieces with a steel rod, and epoxy/glue together in a vice.
Since it's a no cartouche, no barrel bands stock, although beautiful, I feel I can complete the repair myself guilt-free. Both barrel bands hold on only with friction.
The trigger guard was removed, and an odd sling mount was installed at some point.

Tons of pics incoming!






Looks like a spoon-shaped spring. What is this?



Perhaps this was originally a bright finish trap door.


Barrel marking near receiver


Left side of receiver






Almost the entire length of barrel, which was hidden behind stock, has a bright finish.



Someone tried to hold stock together with two small nails. Rifle was a decoration for years.


Notice gap on the rear base of trigger guard due to after-thought sling mount.









Haven't cleaned the breach or barrel yet.
Looks crisp and undamaged.


The only marking on the Lock plate "C"

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[m1903rifle]

Serial number would appear to be too high for a Bannerman.

[Patrick Chadwick]

"Year of Manufacture: Unknown (1889-1990 ???)"

Well it seems to be the

US
Model
1878

- you can just make out the marking on the block! ´See Frasca/Hill "The 45-70 Springfield" p.158.

Serial number is 479952
- produced in 1890
1889 ended at 470246
1890 ended at 502492
so linear interpolation suggest a date of manufacture March-April 1890.

BUT this number would have been a Model 1884, and the Buffington sight had long been introduced (1885).
So I suspect this is some kind of mixture.

Maybe a real Trapdoor expert can say something about the markings?

P.S: the band is the wrong way around. The U (= UP) must be so that it is the right way up when the rifle is racked.

P.P.S: The spoon-shaped spring in the barrel channel provides friction to hold the ramrod in place.

P.P.P.S: Pages183-185 of Frasca/Hill list typical points to be checked on dubious Springfields. Note the 1890 "Lovell Specials" - that may be what you have acquired.

I would not be bothered by all this if the rifle is a good shooter. However, should you one day be inclined to pay serious money for a supposedly original Trapdoor, get the book first!

[dttuner]

"Year of Manufacture: Unknown (1889-1990 ???)"

Well it seems to be the

US
Model
1878

- you can just make out the marking on the block! ´See Frasca/Hill "The 45-70 Springfield" p.158.

Serial number is 479952
- produced in 1890
1889 ended at 470246
1890 ended at 502492
so linear interpolation suggest a date of manufacture March-April 1890.

BUT this number would have been a Model 1884, and the Buffington sight had long been introduced (1885).
So I suspect this is some kind of mixture.

Maybe a real Trapdoor expert can say something about the markings?

P.S: the band is the wrong way around. The U (= UP) must be so that it is the right way up when the rifle is racked.

P.P.S: The spoon-shaped spring in the barrel channel provides friction to hold the ramrod in place.

P.P.P.S: Pages183-185 of Frasca/Hill list typical points to be checked on dubious Springfields. Note the 1890 "Lovell Specials" - that may be what you have acquired.

I would not be bothered by all this if the rifle is a good shooter. However, should you one day be inclined to pay serious money for a supposedly original Trapdoor, get the book first!

What a great response! Thanks so much!

"1890 Lovell Specials" - awesome, now I have another lead to hunt down on the internet
"Frasca/Hill "The 45-70 Springfield"" - looking for this book as we speak. thanks.
"P.S: the band is the wrong way around. The U (= UP)" - Thanks for this. Oops.
"P.P.S: The spoon-shaped spring in the barrel channel provides friction to hold the ramrod in place." - ahh, got it.

This particular rifle was purchased for very little money, from a friend of a friend. I figured I couldn't go wrong.
In fact, if this can be shot (after much research, and verification by a gunsmith) I'll see the purchase as a windfall.
Prefer shooting a "beater" to wear-out, and learn about Springfield Trapdoors. Playing with, researching, and hopefully one day shooting this rifle will surely get me hooked on Springfield Trapdoors, and also motivate me to get a 45-70 reloading setup. Once the 45-70 foundation is in place, I'm going to want an original Trapdoor. No doubt about it.
My father in law has a really nice, all original Trapdoor which was gifted to him by a close family friend, and former WWII Army Colonel. Makes me wanna fly out to see the in-laws ASAP! =P

Additional characteristics of the gun:
- Hammer/Action only has 2 clicks. Half-cock, and Full-cock.

edit - Wow, best price for the two "Frasca/Hill, The 45-70 Springfield" books is $120?!?
Books

[Patrick Chadwick]

"Stock - particularly that it's been cut just under the Buckhorn rear sight. To fix I'll probably need to reinforce the tweo pieces with a steel rod, and epoxy/glue together in a vice.
Since it's a no cartouche, no barrel bands stock, although beautiful, I feel I can complete the repair myself guilt-free. Both barrel bands hold on only with friction."


Since there are quite a few "duffle-cut" milsurp bringback rifles in the US, the rejoining of cut stocks has been handled more than once in the Restorer's forum - dig around a bit!

[dttuner]

"Stock - particularly that it's been cut just under the Buckhorn rear sight. To fix I'll probably need to reinforce the tweo pieces with a steel rod, and epoxy/glue together in a vice.
Since it's a no cartouche, no barrel bands stock, although beautiful, I feel I can complete the repair myself guilt-free. Both barrel bands hold on only with friction."


Since there are quite a few "duffle-cut" milsurp bringback rifles in the US, the rejoining of cut stocks has been handled more than once in the Restorer's forum - dig around a bit!

You know i searched there really quick, during work, to see if I could find a good example, but didn't see anything.
Will dig a little deeper. Thanks!

[dttuner]

Found this great "duffle cut" fix thread:
Milsurps Knowledge Library - Repairing a K98k duffle cut

[Patrick Chadwick]

"- Wow, best price for the two "Frasca/Hill, The 45-70 Springfield" books is $120?!? "

Grit your teeth and get'em. They're not going to get cheaper.

As to your "duffle-cut" stock. In most cases, the perpetrator was bright enough to make the cut underneath the band, so that it would be hidden after re-assembly. In this case, this rifle suffered at the hands of a real Bubba.

Don't worry, it can be fixed:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....ghlight=Monkey

Encouraging?

[m1903rifle]

No such thing as a M1878 Trapdoor. The block is actually marked 1873 ..... the later M73 blocks were interchangeable with the M84 blocks, and were installed until they ran out of them. The receiver is actually a M84 receiver. The rear sight appears to be a M1879 Carbine sight ( marked with a "C" on the side ).

[Patrick Chadwick]

"The rear sight appears to be a M1879 Carbine sight ( marked with a "C" on the side )."
Agreed. See Frasca/Hill p.84.


"The block is actually marke"d 1873"
You may well be right, but...


1) The last figure could be a 3" or an 8. Perhaps dttuner can clarify this? I thought it was an 8.

2) I am aware that there was no such thing as an "official" Model 1878. But, as the authors point out, there were numerous in-between versions.
On the page I cited the 4th breech block from the left appears to be marked US Model 1878. Maybe it's just my poor eyesight?
This version/edition/variation, call it what you like if you don't like the word Model - although that is what is stamped on it - has the rounded shoulder of the 1884 version. The versions clearly marked 1873 all have square shoulders.

3) In any case, the rifle appears to be a mixture. The stock appears to be made for a rifle with screw-clamp bands, hence the lack of band springs.

4) As the unfortunate object is way off being a "correct" collector's item, surely dttuner's first priority is to get it going as a shooter?