What makes an L1A4 an A4?

[Time Bandit]

DO Check the markings on the blade, this will tell you who made the original bayonet and when.

D = Enfield
B = BSA
F = Fazakerley
H-in-diamond Hopkinson
AM = Unknown

I never realised Fazakerley made them also. That kinda answers a mystery of one of my L1A3's then. I have an A3 with an F60 marked blade, first thought was Fazakerley but I'd not heard of them making them so I just presumed it was a 1960 Enfield with a bad stamp but maybe it's not then. The grips are Enfield (which I know means nothing) and it has an Enfield stamp and broad arrow on the pommel all of which made me look on it as an Enfield with a dodgy blade stamp. Time to update my info then I think?

What's the S.M that appears on A4 grips? Sometimes with and sometimes without the Hopkinson H in the diamond?

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Peter Laidler]

The L1A2 might well have been the Australian version of the bayonet too in much the same way as Aust used L2 for the auto L1A1 rifle while the Poms used L2 for their Sterling SMG versions. But in UK service, the A2 designation was set aside for future manufacture by outside contractors in order to make best use.............. etc. In exactly the same way as other items I can think off (Sterling magazines, Milan firing posts for a start!).

But there is no dispute with the L1A1 and 3 versions. As we all seem to agree, except for minor trivial detail that in short they are either MADE as L1A1's, CONVERTED to L1A3's or MADE as L1A3's to the original drawings at the ROF's* (or BSA) to the original drawing and material spec. And yes, there are several minor approved variables

L1A4 - Surely, leaving aside all the hypothesis, if it WASN'T a continuation/advancement of the L1A2 (using the L1A2 prefix originally set aside for commercial manufacturers), then why bother calling it a totally new A4 beast? I'll tell you why! Because ancestry wise an A4 is a numerical advancement of the commercially made/proposed variant of the obsolete A2, complete with minor approved variables in much the same way as the A3 has several minor/insignificant - but approved - variables.

I say that based on my belief in the bleedin obvious and it's ancestral lineage - exactly as we were taught (but probably didn't take on board of course)

* Been told that there are Fazakerley made bayonets too, all of which will be L1A1's converted to L1A3's. I haven't seen one but must admit to not being one for bayonet spotting in the past!

And there's something else too. Way off piste of course but...... It is well known that Sterling used to buy back scrap/Sterling SMG's and both No5 and L1 type Bayonets to salvage the what was called 'welded detail' (the brazed on parts). They unpicked the 'welded detail' (the brazed parts - the nose caps, butts and bayonet standards were all re-used) on the scrap gun casings were all re-used in current gun production and bayonet parts were used on a part payment basis for bayonets against military orders requiring bayonets. We also know from the markings that these salvaged L1 parts were used on L1A4 commercial bayonets and that the Sterling bayonet makers produced 'Sterling' bayonets using L1 bayonet blades fitted with Sterling pommels and crosspieces. But alas, L1 type steel grip plates containing most of the markings listed above. Just total hybrids!

Buggers....... just pressed wrong button before I'd finished ..........

But I was just about to say that we MUST disagree about the design of the fluted flash eliminator. That fluted design of flash eliminator was designed almost by accident, developed at the old RMCS at Shrivenham and patented by the UK War Office/MoD. Long expired patents now but it was a source of pride that the design came from there. In fact one of the first drawings/sketches is illustrated in the Sten Gun book. More to it than that of course.......

While the bayonet catch, standard, crosspiece and blade of the L1 might well be Canadian in 'design', I have to say that on balance, and I won't be the only one looking slightly bewildered here, but they just look sort-of like a UK 1944 designed No5 bayonet shape, length and general configuration. Why......, even the scabbards interchange! Add to that a sort-of slightly more complicated No1 bayonet spring loaded attachment 'design' *and there you have what I'd call 'engineering plagarism!. Back to mowing the lawn...........

*I bet Tankie and Skippy have had to drill out a few (hundred.....) of those SCREW, retainer, plunger catch at the end of the pommel after the slot had failed due to corrosion or other damage. Made worse by the strange thread form when you had to re-tap the hole!

[Time Bandit]

Forgot to stick the pictures of the S.M grip markings in the last post.

Anyone know who or what S.M is?

[browningautorifle]

Isn't S.M. Singer?

[Time Bandit]

Isn't S.M. Singer?

Normally I would of said yes if I'd seen it on a wartime bayonet or some other component from from back then but I'd just presumed by the time the L1A4 bayonet was on the go they wouldn't of still been making bayonet components but then again why not, anything that brings in the money I guess?

[tankhunter]

Pete, Those retaining catch screws were real pain when you got a seized one!!!! This usualy happened if a bayonet had get wet on exercise, & the User/Wedgehead/Stubblehooper/call him what you will. (& I called a LOT of 'em some uncomplementry names when they bought kit in to Me for Repair. That had not been maintained/ looked after correctly!) Had not wiped off the water & fully oiled the catch assembly properly. The bayonet plus his mags, cleaning kit, were returned to the Armoury after End Ex. To be fair, all the a Lads wanted to do, was to back to the Block's, strip off & get showered (A LUXURY after 3 weeks in the Field!) & changed into comfy gear. & then sort their kit/ & personal admin out.

I always drew my Personal weapon out again the next day. & gave it a check over & re-clean if it warranted it. (Obviously, it never warranted it very often! I never worried about drawing a bayonet or Mags, or indeed a cleaning kit.
Because I had good Workshop 'Husbandry' Skills. And always had PLENTY of spares in my own locker in my Workshop!.....

One of the things I used to do with seized catches. Was stand the bayonet Pommel down in a tin of penetrating fluid for a couple of days. This USUALLY did the trick & they came out ok. Some, needed a bit of heat on the screw area of the pommel. Let it cool down, & they frequently did come out again also. After Heat application. You HAD to replace the coil spring though. As the heat had destroyed it's properties. The final & dreaded action, was for VERY stubborn offenders. To be drilled out CAREFULLY as you could. & clean the threads out & clean & refit a new screw. After inspecting & lubing the catch componants.

You see guys. Something as small as a Humble bayonet, COULD, at times. provide ours of 'Fun' (???) for an Armourer!.....................As If we didn't have enough to do!!!!!!

[nzl1a1collector]

In reference to the flash eliminator and bayonet. The following details are from GOD, no not the one sitting on the fluffy clouds or the one growling around in the back rooms of the base workshops, but the true Gods of C1/L1A1 production the Rifle Steering Committee who ruled on every aspect of C1/L1A1 design and development. The following is from 1955

Review of Canadian Commitments, the project team were to incorporate the conditions:

FLASH ELIMINATOR
(a) Flash Eliminator to be secured (as per USA thread design) to the barrel and keyed. This assembly is to use a thick shim to provide a positioned start of thread condition. Additional shims are to be provided when replacement of Flash Eliminator become necessary.

(b) The shape and length will conform with the USA design except for an increase in length at the front on a reduced outside diameter to accept the Canadian designed of Bayonet Ring.

(c) The size of the Bayonet Standard is to be reduced to cut down its protrusion from the main body of the Barrel assembly.

Two bayonets and two Flash Eliminators with drawings to be supplied to the USA. Samples on order for the UK will incorporate these design changes.

Action Taken

(a) Design action has been completed. The Flash Eliminator is based on USA and FN samples and a spacer has been included to position it on the Barrel. By using the same thread and dimensions for the Barrel complete interchangeability with USA and FN has been maintained.

(b) The front end of the Flash Eliminator has been reinforced and the size of the Bayonet Stud has been reduced in comparison with earlier models.

(c) Samples of the Bayonet and Flash Eliminator are being made up and will be on view at the November Meeting.

(d) The method of attachment of the Bayonet has been re-designed to reduce the size of the Stud and also the protrusion of the Catch. By using a "T" shape for the Stud instead of round section, it was possible to improve the locking and to reduce longitudinal clearance.

(e) The Handle has a steel grip rivetted to the Blade ; for ease of manufacture both halves of the Grip have been made identical and can be formed in the same die. The same Spring used for the Catch as for the Sear and Trigger and the Folding Handle, Cocking.

(f) The Bayonet fits the No. 5 Mk. 1 Scabbard which has been adopted for Canadian Production.

(g) Samples have not been completed in time to carry out extensive Engineering Trials or User Trials although some firing has been done using the Flash Eliminator.


RECOMMENDATIONS

(a) It is recommended that the design of barrel to accommodate the new design of Flash Eliminator be adopted as basic design.

(b) It is suggested that the Canadian design of Flash Eliminator with Bayonet Stud and the Bayonet might be adopted as basic design.

[Peter Laidler]

SM must be a small sub-part (?) or Hopkinson as both logos feature within the designation marking. Have just been back to see paperwork at Warminster re the L4 saga and will come back later. But interesting.........