Irish (?) contract No4 rifles

[Frederick303]

Mike 16.

If you read the entire thread, you will see some folks have done the primary research, including letters from the Irish ministry of defense archives. There is a paper trail on these rifles, both in terms of acquisition records and disposition records. The official published letters from the MOD say 50,000 were purchased. the disposition/sales records say 49,000 were sold between 1991 and 1996. Both sources are Irish army Archives.

What Capt. Laidler is saying, and considering that he has been at the heart of the British MOD system for something like 50 years when the good captain speaks most of us listen, is that this information is wrong. He has not elaborated on exactly why but has stated that serial number lists he has seen back up his contention..

Given that the number of Brens to rifles should be at a rate of ~10 to 1, and the Irish only bought ~ 2,000 Brens, and retained ~10,000 SMLE until circa 1984 to 1987, it does give one pause with regards to the official published 50,000 figure of No4 Mk II rifles procured. 2,000 Brens to 60,000 rifles seems kind of off.

In any case the final declaration of truth will come between 2021 and 2026, when the Irish archives will open the records on the sales and the serial number lists will then become available.

[Flying10uk]

Is there any evidence that any of the No4 mk2 rifles that have turned up in Afganistan in recent years have ever been in the possession of the Irish Defence Force? If in the 1980s the C.I.A. was trying to obtain No4 rifles from the U.K. and Canada it would seem logical to me for them to try to source them from the Irish republic as well, being a possible source and friendly with the U.S.A..

[Robert303]

The interesting words here could be 'Evidence' / 'Possession' / 'Irish Defence Force'. Other interesting words could be 'Payment ' / 'Location' / 'Transport' / 'Shipping' / 'Landing' / 'Storage' / 'Onward Transport' and PLUMBING as in No leaks by anyone trying to cause a bit of grief, earn a few bob, start a conspiracy theory. As a starter for 9 1/2 has anyone got a reliable figure for the number of Rifle No4 Mk 2s found in Afghanistan (All sides / tribes / bandits etc)? Now think about this and ask yourself who would have the best idea of the numbers? In my opinion it would be the Russians. They knew the opposition and how it developed both in numbers of men and equipment. So how many FOI request have been filed with them? Have the harbour authorities in Pakistan been asked about ships arriving from Eire? Have fun with the 'Research'

[Peter Laidler]

Getting off the subject again - I wish I didn't need to, believe me, but alluding to what Fred 303 says. It's also interesting to note that with 50,000 new No4 rifles (and I'll say that figure again.... FIFTY thousand, enough to equip at least 70 Infantry Battalions) would be enough rifles to fight the British Army to a standstill. But.............

Like the shortage of other heavy small arms/MG's and back-up, in the way of tanks, other armour, artillery, engineers that makes up an Infantry Brigade or Division and so on, then an Infantry Bde or Division without this 'teeth-arms' and the logistical/transport support is just a line of targets.

You still haven't come back and said where anyone said anything insulting or even remotely horrible about the Irish yet Mike.

[Homer]

Yeah I'm curious too Mike. You let off a fair bit of steam in that previous post.

[Vincent]

……. So they were still a tactical tool on the battle front , in fact so much so that , supposedly Winchester ramped up a production line to manufacture the 303 ammo………

Yep. That’s a fact. I still have some of that white box .303 ammo the Virginia farm boys were giving it away.

[Flying10uk]

One of the main reasons for supplying No4 Le-enfields to the Afghans in the early 1980s was because the U.K. and the US.A. were following a policy of "Plausible Deniability" which was no great secret at the time and still isn't. Mike, I don't think that any-one has, in any way, insulted the Irish by attaching Irish to certain words; I for one have only ever used the word for identification purposes so we know what rifles we are talking about. I think that others have done the same. I remember back in the early 1980s, in the Cadets, there being a total lack of any live .303 ammunition for a couple of years or so. I couldn't figure out at the time why.

[therno]

Yep. That’s a fact. I still have some of that white box .303 ammo the Virginia farm boys were giving it away.

Here some DOD Winchester Irish .303 for sale. It looks like it is from '81?

Irish Contract .303 Ammo for "Irish Enfields" : Vintage Ammo at GunBroker.com

[Beerhunter]

Given that the number of Brens to rifles should be at a rate of ~10 to 1,

I would say that is a conservative estimate of the ratio; I would put it higher. That is to say a higher percentage of Brens to rifles. Based on the infantry requirement alone, in the 1950s, each infantry section (squad in US parlance) had one Bren, 6 rifles and a Sten. There would be more Brens higher up the battalion formation for local defence plus even more for, for example the Recce Platoon with one per vehicle. e.g. Dingo or the earlier marks of Ferret. (The later were still armed with L4s in my day.)

---------- Post added at 08:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 AM ----------

Here some DOD Winchester Irish .303 for sale. It looks like it is from '81?

Irish Contract .303 Ammo for "Irish Enfields" : Vintage Ammo at GunBroker.com

I can understand that. One cannot imagine a Boston Irish shooter contaminating his rifle with English ammunition. :-)

[Peter Laidler]

It doesn't work on a straight numerical across-the-board basis like that Beery. Each regiment has a dusky red 'SCALES OF ISSUE' list issued to the QM and each regiment has a different ratio of weapons issued that accord with the ORDER OF BATTLE of that unit within the Brigade/Division/Army group. The only sure thing is that if the Regt/Unit has a paper total of, say, 650 men, then there will be 650+ a few weapons allocated. Then there's the other support units such as logistics etc etc might be nominally formed into sections and platoons but not in the same way as an Infantry fighting platoon who will have less LMG's and rifles but more SMG's.............. And on it goes.