Potsdam musketoon/carbine?

[Anzac15]

Just traded for this. As I understand it, it is a Potsdam musket converted to percussion. 1831 date on buttplate, along with regimental markings, pretty heavy wearing on bottom of stock, looks as though it was carried slung a lot across someone back.Can just make out 'SUHL' on the plate, with something else above it, can't make it out. These are a bit outside my level of expertise, so any info will be welcomed. Thanks!

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[Patrick Chadwick]

The buttplate marking does not quite match any of the post-1871 styles in Wacker & Gortz, but a plausible interpretation is:

2nd Battalion / 25th Landwehr Regiment / Rifle No. 218.

Beech stock (repaired) seems unlikely for a military weapon in 1831. In fact, pretty much a no-no for the whole 19th century. And the mismatch between the curve of the bottom of the buttplate and the butt itself is substantial and not explainable by shrinkage.

As to the 1831:
The Prussians were converting cavalry and "jäger" weapons to percussion from about 1828 on, so the 1831 date, which is rather too late for a new manufacture as a flintlock, is theoretically possible for a conversion. BUT on 30. March 1833 the AMZ (Allgemeine Militärzeitung) reported "It is intended to arm the Jaeger and sharpshooters and, where possible, the line infantry, with percussion rifles..." - and the conversion programm was stopped in 1833 because of the cost". Landwehr (sort of Home Guard) units would have been way down on the priority list, so a conversion of a Landwehr rifle as early as 1831 is improbable. The date 1831 thus seems to be neither the date of original manufacture not the date of an official conversion.

Foresight blade is missing on the front band. I can't see the widened entry for the ramrod (which does not look like one from a Prussian musket). Maybe it's just an unfortunate photo, but I'm not happy about the shape.

Suhl (a famous firearms-producing town in Thüringen) is a long, long way from Potsdam.

The screw on the bolster seems to be a modern one. But the style of the bolster looks OK. Hammer looks good, as does the lockplate, but a clear photo of the marking would be helpful. The 4-sided nut at the front of the lockplate is a fudge, as is the washer under the rear bolt holding the lock in position. Take it to bits and you may well find that the bolts look modern and are too long. Yeah, I know wood shrinks, but that much?

The springs for the barrel bands are inlet on a skew. Looks more like Khyber Pass than Potsdam. And the last time I saw such a curly "9" on a rifle it was on an Oriental piece, and was an Arabic "m".

The newish-looking piece of brass wrapped around the butt over the rear sling swivel is probably a repair made because the original screw was rusted to bits and irremovably stuck in the wood. That is a fudge and not a proper military repair. - Remove the trigger guard and see if my guess is correct!

In general, wear varies from very heavy to very little (hammer and tang) - an indication that the parts came together recently.

...Shall I go on? I think this is a "home brew", possibly by Ali Bubba, using vintage parts, but not all from a Prussian musket.

[Anzac15]

Funny you mention 'Khyber Pass'.....I kinda thought about that myself. But just home from work, decided to take it apart and look around. Everything matches on it, along with the little '39' and '96' numbers. The band where you thought it was a Chinese character is a '39' with a 'K' and what looks like a crown. 'K' stamps are prevalent as well. Couldnt get the triggerguard all the way off, but could see the matching '2933' on the inside of it. So it's not a bitser.

[Anzac15]

Plate is 'PJ &....'something 'SUHL'.

---------- Post added at 10:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 PM ----------

Just found....'1831' is also barely visible at base of the barrel, along with '281' which is the last number on the buttplate.

---------- Post added at 10:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 PM ----------

Actually that now looks to be 'PS &.....' something Suhl.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Ok, encouraging news about the numbers!

BTW, now we can all see " S, S & S Suhl" on the lockplate. Insider knowledge reveals that S, S & S stands for
Spangenberg, Sauer & Sturm, Suhl
- the same syndicate of manufacturers that made my "Pickelgewehr":
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=49231

If you go here:
http://www.deutsche-biographie.de/sfz122979.html

from which I have taken these quotes:
"...mündete 1839 auf Initiative Ferdinands (1802–66) in die Gründung der „Königl. Gewehrfabrik Spangenberg & Sauer...“, die jedoch hauptsächlich von der Familie Sauer geleitet wurde.

"...1849 rüstete das einzige damals lieferfähige Suhler Konsortium, dem auch die um einen dritten Teilhaber erweiterte Firma „Spangenberg, Sauer & Sturm“ angehörte..."
Thus one can see that a lockplate marked S,S, & S must have been made post-1849
http://www.deutsches-jagd-lexikon.de...Sauer_%26_Sohn

The gun may have been one of the first S,S & S products. But it cannot have been made in 1831, 8 years before the company existed.

It now looks as if you have a more-or less intact S,S & S musket from post 1849, with a cut-down barrel, that has been fitted up with a replacement stock and a buttplate from a different gun entirely.

Maybe not Ali Bubba, but I still think it's a home-brew arrangement.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Two things would now help in further clarification:

1) Please post a good photo of the entire lockplate. Small stylistic variations help to narrow the range of possible original models.
2) Please take a very close look at the bore, to see if there are any traces of rifling. this would also narrow the range of "suspects". A post-1849 barrel is likely to have been rifled.
3) Please measure the bore as accurately as you can. It is not much use measuring at the muzzle, you need to measure several inches down to get past any bellmouthing.

All these may help in pinning it down as a one-time model XXXX.

[gew8805]

Patrick is correct in identifying the Suhl contractor that made this Prussian M1809 musket or possibly a M1839 or M1839/55.

In support of what Patrick says, this gun has been severely modified after passing into civilian hands. There never was a "carbine" in German service that looked anything like this. An example? The rear swivel (behind the chopped off trigger guard) is the bottom third of the gun's original middle band. Another example is that the vent screw in the percussion bolster is a modified modern Philips head screw. And, of course, there is the nut holding the front lock bolt through the lock plate. Lastly, the gentleman doing the work - wherever he did it - didn't even bother to slim the forearm when the front band was re-inlet into the shortened stock. All inventive yes, but Prussian work was always extremely well done, this, sadly, is not. No offense intended, it is interesting.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Patrick is correct in identifying the Suhl contractor that made this Prussian M1809 musket or possibly a M1839 or M1839/55...

Thanks for the support, but as you can see, I have my doubts. The trouble is that there seem to have been shifting alliances between the various gunmaking houses according to the state of the market, i.e. who got which government contract, and whether or not he could cope or needed to call in assistance.

As to the model, it is similar to the Prussian M1839, but the lockplate looks more like that on a Bavarian M1848 Landwehr musket. This was a slightly chaotic period in longgun development, as the various states had a large number of muskets left over from the Napoleonic wars, which they were reluctant to throw away. And the Prussians had pressed everything into service that went bang. Which means that ex-Prussian "official" mixmasters were legion and not necessarily the product of Bubba and his colleagues. Plus everybody had captured everybody else's weapons and used them, often with adaptations. "100% original" is an expression to be applied with extreme caution in this period.

So there were original Napoleonic muskets, later muskets of hardly altered design, smooth-bore muskets with rifling cut later, musket-style guns made new with rifling, plus pillar-breech and Delvigne rifles both as new models and adaptations and upgrades of all of this floating around simultaneously. It was chaotic, and several gunmakers had difficulties coping with the demands made by army purchasers. Hence the more-or-less enforced cooperation out of desperation between various gunmakers and a resulting uncertainty as to who, exactly, made what, let alone when!

I wish I could have the whole thing in bits on my desk, study them, and then take the bits to the museum in Suhl and let them have a look! As it is, I can only go by the photos.

And please, Anzac15, I need that accurate bore measurement!

[Anzac15]

Didn't think that it was a Prussian job, possibly a Confederate modificstion?

[Anzac15]

Few more pics. Definitely a smoothbore, and definitely a barrel date of 1831. I'm almost certain that is a 'PS & something Suhl as opposed to 'SS' and something Suhl. Again, '281' is seen on the flat at the base of the barrel. '281' is also seen on the buttplate.