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South African Model 1873 Winchester
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01-18-2016 07:34 PM
# ADS
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We'd love to see some pics of this one...?
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I'll try to get some closeups of the stamps. The gun is pretty plain-Jane. Of significance: there are no British
proof marks. On another forum I was directed to a SA gunsmith/gunmaker who, in the 1880s, regularly imported Winchester rifles directly from the US. The models included the 1873 and 1876. However, this firm apparently stopped importing when he and his son died within months of one another, in 1890. I am also interested in pursuing another interesting link to the Canadian War Hero: Major A.L. Turner:
A.L. "Gat" Howard was born an American, and was a Union Army Officer. In the 1880s he became the foreign sales representative for Colts, who were attempting to market Gatling Guns. In 1885 he and a Colt Gatling Gun accompanied the NW Field Force to quell the NW Rebellion and he operated the gun in winter conditions. Subsequently, he remained in Canada
and eventually became a Canadian Army officer. He was a lieutenant when he sailed with the First CMRs to South Africa in 1899, and, through hard work and daring, rose to the rank of Major, eventually becoming the C/O of the Canadian Scouts (later the Royal Canadian Dragoons). He was well liked and respected by all who met him. On Feb. 17, 1901, while on a recce with his CSM, he was captured by the Boers. Both men were summarily executed when their identities became apparent. It would be no small surprise that such a man would equip himself with familiar American weapons, and these may have been private-purchase items he brought with him in 1899. I have been told that he carried a Winchester rifle and Colt pistol as his personal sidearms. It would also be no surprise if the Cape Government later acquired a Winchester rifle from surrendering Boers, who would have most-certainly relished such a gun captured from an enemy officer.
Of course, all this is conjecture on my part. But, the fact remains, the provenance of this gun has to be interesting, whatever it might actually be!
Last edited by Centurion; 01-20-2016 at 03:19 PM.
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Maybe it's simpler than you think: Besl is a somewhat uncommon German
family name. 73 personal and 10 business entries online. But no luck with the Netherlands telephone book.
However, in South Africa...
I leave it up to you to follow this clue. You may be surprised.
Last edited by Patrick Chadwick; 01-20-2016 at 04:16 PM.
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delete
Thought Buffalo Bill Museum might be of help.
Why use a 50 pound bomb when a 500 pound bomb will do?
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Thanks: I've contacted Cody Museum, Winchester Collectors Association and the South African Military Historical Society, to name a few. However, no real Joy yet. I've looked through the Imperial surname list of the Anglo-Boer War Historical Society without success, although I suspect that this would more-likely be a Boer-Dutch/German
/Swiss
surname, and I'm not sure just how inclusive the list is. Unlikely to be Boer, given that most combatants would not have had the means or skills to strike their initials on a gun barrel. Most would have carved them in the stock, as they did with their Mausers.
Last edited by Centurion; 01-20-2016 at 07:01 PM.
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Originally Posted by
Centurion
... Unlikely to be Boer, given that most combatants would not have had the means or skills to strike their initials on a gun barrel. Most would have carved them in the stock, as they did with their Mausers.
I'm not sure that is a valid assumption. Agreed, it is more likely that individuals would (and did then) carve the stocks given an abundance of idle time, boredom and an available knife. However, one can not assume that it was unlikely that Boers didn't have access to the tools or the skill required to stamp a name on a rifle. Nor can one ignore the possibility that this particular rifle may have been stamped with an owner's name when it was purchased or otherwise acquired.
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--I've looked at a lot of wartime Boer guns and have yet to see one with initials stamped on the barrel. It is entirely possible that the letters were stamped by a gunsmith/gunmaker who might have directly ordered the gun from the US. It is also possible that the letters were stamped at some later date. I've seen lots of wartime capture guns in Legion messes over the years--the gun may have been removed after spending years on display in a Legion mess somewhere. In any case, at this point, all this is pure conjecture. It would be interesting to see similarly stamped guns with known provenance, as that would probably clarify things quite a bit. Attached are pictures of typical Boer stamps/marks. Typically, only guns purchased by the Orange Free State (OVS) prior to the war have stamps placed on metal parts.
Last edited by Centurion; 01-20-2016 at 11:05 PM.
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--Typical Boer Rifle Markings:
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