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Mystery of the Missing Wartime Long Branch Snipers
Perhaps all our global team can help solve what seems to be a "mystery" of missing Long Branch Snipers that were produced during Wartime and the scopes that were fitted to them.
Here's the quandary, in a nutshell: From those that have contributed to the Long Branch Sniper data bases, it appears that the very large proportion of the LB Snipers that are present and accounted for were from the Post War production, and very few from Wartime production. Where are the Wartime Snipers?
From the data base linking LB serial numbers to months of production (Long Branch - Linking Serial Numbers to Month of Production) and the Production Report (which starts on October 1, 1943) submitted by Assistant Production Manager Marshall in early 1946, he states “At the end of the 3rd quarter of 1943, total production of the No.4 rifle was 477,171” but makes no mention of any Sniper production (presumably 70 Snipers was a limited run – which may have been for trials in combat to test their effectiveness, which in turn may have led to a larger contract the next year) The 70 Snipers from 1943 would have had serial number in the 40L-50L range. Does anyone know of the existence of any of these?
68L32xx range of sniper rifles would have been produced in late May-early June 1944 No one seems to know how many were produced in this range, and very few have surfaced.
Marshall states in his report that in 1944: Total Snipers produced: 644 (these all seem appear to be in the 68L32xx or 71Lxxxx serial # block range beginning 71L0001) Note: the last Serial Number of a Sniper that has surfaced in this 71L series is 71L0644 – What happened to the other Snipers in the remainder of the series? (I have one in this range -- Doomed Long Branch Sniper Reborn and Seaforth72 has a couple). A number of those at the end of the production series appear to have 1945 dates on the receivers, indicating they were probably not date-stamped until they received their mated scopes. Few seem to have been accounted for.
Marshall states for Q1-‘45: Snipers Produced: 254 Total: 898.(do these all match the 71LXXXX serial # block? or another block of SNs?) (Note: These would have serial numbers 71L0655-0898 but none have been accounted for at this point.)
Marshall states for Q2-’45: Snipers Produced: 24, (Production fell due to not receiving the necessary telescopes) Total 922. .(do these all match the 71LXXXX serial # block? or another block of SNs?) (Note: These would have serial numbers 71L 899-923, but none have been accounted for at this time)
These would all be considered the Wartime Snipers. Here's what Seaforth72 shared with me from his data base:
1. 71L0276 ?
2. 71L0279 DATED 1944 Scope Missing, Seaspriter on Milsurps Robert Porter Lynch, Naples, FL USA
3. 71L0287 C No. 32 MK. IA 368C UNKNOWN
4. 71L0297 17977 17977
5. 71L0303 351C Cold Zero ? Alberta Canada
6. 71L0322 C No. 32 Mk. IA 301C B & B Arsenal
7. 71L0332 No. 32 MK. IA 3840 ?
8. 71L0350 C No. 32 405C paul87buck USA?
9. 71L0374 UK
10. 71L0403 C No. 32 Mk. II 471C UNKNOWN Italy?
11. 71L0414 C No. 32 MK. II UNKNOWN Canada?
12. 71L0435 C No. 32 Mk. I or IA or II 168C John ROBERTSON Canada
13. 71L0439 C No. 32 Mk. II 3854C 3854C UNKNOWN USA
14. 71L0555 No. 32 Mk. II 11189 11189 Colin Stevens Canada (British scope fitted in service) DATED 1944
15. 71L0573 C No. 32 Mk. II 690C 249C Colin Stevens Canada (mismatched C No. 32 MK3 scope DATED 1945
16. 71L0595 No. 32 Mk. III Canada
17. 71L0597 ? UNKNOWN USA
18. 71L0630 No. 32 Mk. 3 > L1A1? 116(C?) Graeme Barber NZ
19. 71L0644 696C 137(C?) Simon ? UK
20. 71Lxxxx 307C Van Xulu
This represents about 2% of the total production of the 71LXXXX rifle, which was the largest Sniper production run. The remaining 98% from Wartime Production are “Unknown Fate” (apparently Unaccounted for, Missing/Lost, or Destroyed). What happened to these other 1,000 rifles? Why are such a large proportion in the “unknown fate” category.
Once the war was over in Europe, Marshall goes on to state:
Q3-’45: Snipers Produced: 161, with total production of this item up to 1,083 -- production was progressing in a satisfactory manner, compatible with the receipt of telescopes. (do these all match the 71LXXXX or another block of SNs? or 90L 8XXXserial # block?)
Q4-’45: Snipers produced: 58, Total 1,141. .(do these all match the 71LXXXX or or another block of SNs? 90L 8XXXserial # block?)
Long Branch closed down normal rifle production in August, 1945. Marshall continues:
Q3-’45: Snipers Produced: 161, with total production of this item up to 1,083 -- production was progressing in a satisfactory manner, compatible with the receipt of telescopes. (do these all match the 71LXXXX or another block of SNs? or 90L 8XXXserial # block?)
Q4-’45: Snipers produced: 58, Total 1,141. .(do these all match the 71LXXXX or or another block of SNs? 90L 8XXXserial # block?)
He then states: Dec 31 1945: Small Arms Limited Uncompleted contracts: Sniper’s Rifle – 376; (these all seem to match the 90L8000 to 8376 serial # block)
Remarkably, 77 (20%) of these Post-War Production rifles are accounted for today.
(see 1945 Longbranch No4mk1*T Serial and Scope List )
These would be attributed to Q1-‘46 when all operations were taken over by the Small Arms Division of Canadian Arsenals Limited, and up to March, 1946, when all assets and liabilities of the company were turned over to the Department of Reconstruction and Supply and the company made application for the surrender of its Charter.
Why are so many of the Wartime Snipers missing? Or am I missing something? Who can shed some light on this?
Seaforth72 -- you have some interesting observations to share as well as conclusions about scopes.
Thanks for your help.
Robert
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Last edited by Badger; 02-24-2016 at 05:35 PM.
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02-24-2016 05:26 PM
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Robert, I have an idea about a resource I can draw on. Allow me to make a phonecall or two and see if I can help out.
- Darren
1 PL West Nova Scotia Regiment 2000-2003
1 BN Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry 2003-2013
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Rifle 5 on that list, SN 71L0303 is with me in Australia. It had and was fitted up for a Lyman TP not a No32 but now sadly missing its scope and mounts.
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I believe that the "missing" Long Branch snipers are easily(?) found in the 71L0000-71L0220 range.
I do not have any 71L snipers below 0200 in my data base, and I have 2 theories:
1) they were retained by the Canadian Army and have not been released
2) the 71L block starts at 0200 (not 0000 as was typical for the other "block" rifles) and continues to approx. 710
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Seven or eight years ago a local scrapyard cut two into small chunks at the behest of the Gendarmerie Royale Canadien. The remains were gone before I found out. The description from a person who wouldn't know a No.4 from a Model 94 left no room for doubt that the story was true.
Were these rifles not all supplied to the UK MoD for disbursement to whomever they pleased? If so, they could have ended up anywhere; India, Pakistan, Greece, NATO, you name it.
Last edited by Surpmil; 02-24-2016 at 10:50 PM.
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42-L-7507 and 45-L-1459 were both converted to L42A1 spec. by Enfield sometime after 1970.
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My edited serial number notes, now updated to 2.23.16
Left column is current numbers in serial block, early blocks may have rifles "grouped" into exact 1000 blocks.
NUMBERS BREAK-DOWN
"survivors & known serials "x "Block"/ "est. total" )
1x 0L9 1/3=33%
1x 8L7 1/3=33%
1x 12L4 1/3=33%
2x 32L 2/3=67%
2x 36L5 2/3=67%
1x 39L7 1/3=33%
1x 42L7 1/3=33%
1x 43L9 1/3=33%
5x 45L1 5/20=25%
1x 45L5 1/3+33%
7x 50L0 7/50=14%
1x 63L5 1/3=33%
5x 64L7 5/10=50%
8x 68L3 8/50=16%
51x 71L0 51/660=7.7%
42x 74L0 42/350=12%
9x 80L8 9/84=10.7%
85x 90L8 85/375=22.6%
2x ExP 4/15=13% (Badger/Hahn/2xCollectorS)
56L5967 (exp Alu weaver WOW)
My est. 1619 rifles vs. 1588 W.O.W. documents
Reducing ‘42/’43 estimated numbers to published 71 14/71 20% of documented pre-’44 rifles=1590 (not including experimentals)
1519 "production rifles" estimated produced during 1944-46
71 "production rifles" produced before Jan1, 1944
= 1590 estimated "Production" sniping rifles at Long Branch (ie. not ASC/ASE ect.) ... pretty darn close to the documented 1588 number.
29- ’43 or earlier (dated receiver) documented serial numbers as of 2.23.16
Note: just because the receiver is dated 1943, doesn't mean that the gun was CONVERTED before Jan1, 1944 and may NOT be included in the 71 "Total" by Jan1, 1944.
I would also note that 1 serial number would place the rifle in mid 1941 receiver dated production (although the barrel would be dated 1942 in my experience).
2 rifles would be dated 1942... arguing that the Long Branch sniper rifle conversion program started in early 1942, or late 1941.
I would note that sniping rifles are likely to survive at a higher percentage due to their "valuable and attractive" nature...this is often observed in relation to "special order" (engraved ect.) sporting firearms. So the high proportion of surviving early serial numbers is not difficult to explain.
Last edited by Lee Enfield; 02-25-2016 at 02:58 PM.
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Sorry for any confusion, this was a PM from Seaspriter
Originally Posted by
Seaspriter
...snip...
So I ran your numbers through a spread sheet and came up with an anomaly. Perhaps you'd like to help figure it out.
The Marshall Production Reports state (for the years 1944-46)
1944: Total Snipers produced: 644
Q1-‘45 Snipers Produced: 254 Total: 898.
Q2-’45:Snipers Produced: 24, Total 922.
Q3-’45: Snipers Produced: 161, with total production of this item up to 1,083
Q4-’45: Snipers produced: 58, Total 1,141
Dec 31 1945: Small Arms Limited Uncompleted contracts: Sniper’s Rifle – 376;
Total (1944-46)= 1,517
If I take the 1941-43 estimates in your data base (serial blocks 0L9-50L0), your estimates total = 97
Added together 97+1517 = 1614 (just 25 or so more than your estimates -- which means your estimates are pretty close!)
Nothing to quibble about -- as our data becomes more clear, the picture will become even more accurate.
...snip...
My reply:
My estimated production numbers for each serial block is based on observed survivors and reported serial numbers.
The large numbers (50) for the 50L block (for example) is based on the known serial numbers, but I no longer believe (due to the large serial spread -approx. 80 serials [call it 0004 thru 0080, then an outlier at 0300] that the 50L block snipers were actually a "block", I do believe that they are still batch production, ie) pull 15-20 completed or semi-completed rifles off the line for conversion.
Indications are that the first stage of the program started (likely) based on selecting an accurate rifle and converting it.
The second stage was likely started when Peter's oft referred to H&H production specialist showed up to solve the low production problems. It was to go down and select a "batch" of 10-20 completed rifles (not necessarily consecutive, but close) and segregate them for conversion. For example 2 of the 45L1 serial numbers are consecutive and the other 3 are all within 10 serials of each other. the 64L [62 serials] and 68L [65 serials] blocks are very similar - more reported numbers would tell for sure if they are "batch" or "Block" numbers.
The third stage was true "serial block" [71L, 74L, 80L, 90L] production in that serial number "blocks" were set aside and receivers were converted and guns assembled as snipers...never having been standard service rifles.
This is one reason why the 71L serial block shows markings variations and both 1944 and 1945 dates... for instance there were at least 2 "5" number fonts used on the receiver date stamp.
Last edited by Lee Enfield; 02-25-2016 at 05:35 PM.
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