Mystery of the Missing Wartime Long Branch Snipers

[Seaspriter]

Thanks for the insights LE.

OK based on believed high scope serial numbers:
376 - Mk3
100 - C.No67
350 - TP
762 - would have to be the production figure of MkI, MkIA, MkII scopes
= 1588

based on currently highest observed (scope) serial numbers:
352c - Mk3
98c - C.No67
341 - TP (rifle serial numbers 0-340 in this case)
706c - MkI, MkIA, MkII highest serial number (currently observed)
= 1497 (a shortfall of 91 numbers from 1588)

I have a hunch solving the enigma must first start with Production numbers (to get an accurate number of Snipers produced), then back the scope numbers into Production.

Here's what's known: 1944-46: 1517 Snipers Produced
Here's what's "guestimated" 1941-1943: ~ 100 Snipers Produced (this is based on the figures you provided me, plus a few new # that came in from this thread)
Date---#Est. Prod.--Serial # (small lots)
1941/2----3-------0L9
1942-------3------ 8L7
1942-------3------ 12L4
1943-------3------ 32L
1943-------6------ 36L502x-36L5034
1943-------3------ 38L9908
1943-------3------ 39L
1943-------3------ 42L750X
1943-------3------ 43L9
1943------20-----45L1
1943-------3----- 45L5
1943 ----50------50L0
Total = ~100 (Guesstimate)

Add the known 1944-46 production (1517) to the guesstimate 1941-43 production (~100) and we end up with 1617 Total Sniper Production.
[Procedural note: all the serial block estimates for 1941-46 are in a spreadsheet. For the known years of 1944-46, if we reduce the serial block for one range, we have to add some numbers from another range so the final production still equals the known 1517 produced in those years.]

Believe me LE, I'm not trying to confound you! I'm just trying to put the hard evidence to the test and see what shakes out.

I'll be in Edmonton in mid-April and maybe we should plan on a couple of hours putting two brains together on this (hopefully my brain will still be intact) and I won't drive you crazy!

[Cold_Zero]

Some numbers from my locker.

1943 28L428x Butt replaced
1943 50L022x C-389. Butt only
1944 68L325x C-393 scope missing
1944 71L030x C-351 scope missing
1944 74L047x C-610 REL scope tin only dated 1945
1944 74L030x 4473S scope missing
1944 74L034x scope bracket only
1945 90L813x C-168
1945 90L813x C-144. Scope missing
1945 90L813x C-139
1945 90L821x C-285


IIRC Peter had mentioned in a thread about the highest numbered REL MK3 C-351 was on a an L42 somewhere. Working off Cell phone, not able to find the thread.

[Seaspriter]

Some numbers from my locker.

Thanks Cold Zero
There are actually some Serial Numbers here that expand the range of what we thought were known numbers.

1944 74L047x C-610 REL scope tin only dated 1945
1944 74L030x 4473S scope missing
1944 74L034x scope bracket only

As LE has noted earlier, it's getting clear there are a number of 1944 dated 74L0xxx range Snipers, and a number of 1945 dated in the 71L5xxx range. This hints that many of the Snipers were set aside awaiting scopes and pulled off the shelf using the First In-Last Out (FILO) or Random Selection inventory control.

All the data we can get helps understand the mystery

1945 90L013x C-168
1945 90L013x C-144. Scope missing
1945 90L013x C-139
1945 90L021x C-285

Could you just recheck the above numbers, which, if accurate, change our thinking about the 90L block (which heretofore was all 90L 80xx)

Thanks for taking the time, Robert
Robert

[Cold_Zero]

Numbers re-checked and corrected.

[Lee Enfield]

Some numbers from my locker.

...snip...

1944 74L047x C-610 REL scope tin only dated 1945
...snip...

If this serial number is correct, this is one of several 71L block rifles which are known to have had the scope bracket miss-engraved with 74L block prefix.

[Seaforth72]

"1945 dated in the 71L5xxx range." I think that Seaspriter has a typographical error and that it should read "1945 dated in the 71L05xx range." My own 71L0573, dated 1945, is likely one of those that he was thinking of.

Colin

Thanks Cold Zero
There are actually some Serial Numbers here that expand the range of what we thought were known numbers.


As LE has noted earlier, it's getting clear there are a number of 1944 dated 74L0xxx range Snipers, and a number of 1945 dated in the 71L5xxx range. This hints that many of the Snipers were set aside awaiting scopes and pulled off the shelf using the First In-Last Out (FILO) or Random Selection inventory control.

All the data we can get helps understand the mystery



Could you just recheck the above numbers, which, if accurate, change our thinking about the 90L block (which heretofore was all 90L 80xx)

Thanks for taking the time, Robert
Robert

[Seaspriter]

"1945 dated in the 71L5xxx range." I think that Seaspriter has a typographical error and that it should read "1945 dated in the 71L05xx range." My own 71L0573, dated 1945, is likely one of those that he was thinking of.

Colin

Thank you Colin, and pardon me if I've confused anyone. Yes, for the 1945 range, I was thinking of yours.

Here's what's in my data base (always being corrected!)
- highest known 71L series dated 1944 is 71L0555 with No. 32 Mk. II 11189 scope
- lowest known 71L series dated 1945 is 71L0573 with No. 32 Mk. II 690C scope
- highest know 71L series is 71L0651

Apparently there are also 74L series dated both 1944 and 1945, so the anomalies continue.

Part of the reason is the 71L series would have been pulled off the production line for Sniper conversion in June-July 1944 according the to production reports, and the 74L series would have been pulled in August 1944. The reason some have 1945 dates (apparently) is they were not fitted for scopes until '45, then released. (any other good explanations out there?)

Expect more 1944-45 anomalies to show up in this range -- remember, the time for these Snipers is post D-Day Invasion of Europe -- I can only guess there was a lot of pressure to get these rifles into service. The team in charge of Sniper production was not worrying about serial numbers and dates (never considering that 3 generations later people like us would be obsessing over the dates and scope numbers).

[Seaforth72]

It would seem logical to me that the main markings e.g.
No.4 MK.I*
LONG BRANCH
1944
or whatever year, would be applied (rolled on?) before the body was heat treated. The serial number could have been stamped on partially (at least one forum member has noted different fonts for first and last parts of some serial number stampings) or in whole at a later date.

Today I viewed Long Branch sniper 68L3200 (matching bolt, original REL scope number is unknown as butt had been changed in service and it was found fitted with a mismatched scope and bracket) and although the date is very, very faint (apparently due to sandblasting during a military rebuild) it appears to be 1944.

[Peter Laidler]

Dear o' dear..... this thread seems to be getting into one of those number game quizzes. In fact it actually READS like a numbers game. For heavens sake, can't someone just put it all in easy to read and decipher tabulated form before our screens explode in a complete jumble of numbers.

Anyone out there a mathematics/arithmetic graduate from Yale who can get to grips with it. It COULD be interesting, but until then...................

[stencollector]

This is why I stuck with only the 90L8xxx series on my thread about those serial numbers. It was a nice neat batch, and there was very little deviation. Most of them are found in fairly pristine condition and most often are matching.

With the earlier ones, you also have a number of fakes built into the lot. That is going to make documenting them much harder. I know of one person in this province who has been having LBs cobbled together into snipers for a few years now and tossing them into auctions or dragging them out to gun shows. He does not declare their providence (or lack therof), even when asked.