M1 Carbine wasn't used in front line battle?

[bczandm]

A post on a local board claimed that the M1 carbine wasn't really used it battle, that it was issued to "cooks" and others that rarely saw battle. I didn't even know how to respond that that claim as I've seen the M1 Carbine in historic battle photos as much if not more than any other rifle. The poster claimed that the movies were more responsible for it's reputation than the real facts.

Is there even a shred of truth to this? Were carbines at all held back for non combat positions? I doubt it, but was wondering what the experts say.
Bob

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[Sentryduty]

This wouldn't take more than a few seconds to disprove, I think someone is just talking for the sake of it.

[imntxs554]

If that's the case there were more cooks and other personal other the Infantry Soldiers...I guess you still hear stories that you thought you heard them all.

[Seaspriter]

The intention of the M1 Carbine was to provide a better alternative to the 1911 Colt, which, for all intents and purposes, as a pistol, has an effective range of 20-25 yards. The idea was to provide those behind the lines (like cooks, supply clerks, and truck drivers) with something with greater range than the pistol, but not as cumbersome as a heavy M1 Garand battlefield rifle.

So much for the intention. The author of the comment is has not read extensively about the carbine; otherwise he never would have made such a comment.

The reality was that so many units loved the M1 Carbine that they carried them into the front lines, particularly those who needed to move fast.

The decorated war hero, Audie Murphy, in his book "To Hell and Back" (Holt Paperbacks, 2002; first published 1949) liked his M1 Carbine more than the others (BAR, BMG, Garand, Thompson, etc.) Apparently it was his primary weapon from Anzio through to the end of the war, as these passages from his book state:

"Within a moment I am involved in a duel with a German who climbs upon a cannon to get the advantage of elevation. I see him as he lowers his rifle upon me and whip up my carbine. He fires. The bullet kicks dust in my face as my carbine goes off. Frantically I try to blink the dirt from my eyes, knowing the German will not miss again. It is only a few seconds, perhaps, but it seems much longer before I can see. The kraut is sprawled in front of the gun. Later I discover that my lucky shot got him in the heart." (Chapter 15)

"Grasping the carbine in my left hand and a grenade in my right, I step suddenly from behind the rock. The Germans spot me instantly. The gunner spins the tip of his weapon toward me. But the barrel catches in a limb, and the burst whizzes to my right. I lob the grenade and grab the carbine trigger with one movement. Before the grenade has time to burst, two krauts fall with carbine slugs in their bellies. I quickly lob two more grenades into the position; four of the eight Germans are killed; three are put out of action by wounds. The eighth, a squat, fat man, tries to escape.....I squeeze the trigger. The helmet jumps. The man falls as if struck in the head with a club." (Chapter 17)

"Before reporting to company headquarters, I carefully clean my carbine. ‘I want to go up and try to get that sniper,’ I say....There is a rustle. My eyes snap forward. The branches of a bush move. I drop to one knee. We see each other simultaneously. His face is a black as a rotting corpse; and his cold eyes are filled with evil. As he frantically reaches for the safety of his rifle, I fire twice. He crashes backwards....At headquarters I make my report. Then I go to the room that serves as a kitchen, take my carbine apart, and start cleaning it." (Chapter 17)

"Crack! It is like being struck with a ball bat. The ricocheting bullet digs a channel through my hip and knocks me flat....I raise my carbine and with my right hand fire pistol-fashion. The bullet spatters between the German’s eyes." (Chapter 18)

"'Wonder if I could get a carbine. I don’t like an M-1 for this woods fighting.'" (Chapter 19)

"The [German] officer hesitates. My finger begins squeezing the trigger of my carbine. I think perhaps with a quick rake I can put most of the Germans out of action, but at this moment, I would give my chances in Paradise to have a tommy gun in my hands." (Chapter 14)

This doesn't sound like a "cooks story" defending his pots and pans.

[imntxs554]

Over 6m made I think Sentry was right....the guy was just talking.


Semper Fi
'81-'87 1 Bat. 8th Marines 24th MAU


Frank

[Sarge]

Sounds to me very much like the comments that would be made by an uninformed/uneducated Idiot! Perhaps he can neither get his eyes to focus to look at photos nor read the English language!
I would guess he has neither read about nor looked at photos of WW 2, Korea or Viet Nam.
Sarge

[BrianQ]

The idea was to provide those behind the lines (like cooks, supply clerks, and truck drivers) with something with greater range than the pistol, but not as cumbersome as a heavy M1 Garand battlefield rifle.

100% Internet myth. The idea for what became the M1 Carbine was to fill the gap between the side arm and main battle rifle for the Infantryman whose primary function was other than being a rifleman.

[JimF4M1s (Deceased)]

Never saw a cook carrying a 1911. Carbine production was more then double the number of 1911's made.

[firstflabn]

By the 4th Grade I had learned that when someone made an assertion, it was up to them to provide some factual support. Since the internet expert is unlikely to be able to do that, I'll attempt to correct uninformed opinion on one related claim:

On carbines for "cooks and clerks": if you look at the Feb 44 T/O&E for an army infantry battalion, you find 27 MOS with 'cook' in the title; 8 with 'clerk'; and 15 with 'driver.'

Here's the scorecard for authorized personal weapons for the above 50 GIs:

Carbines - 0
Garands - 50

From an incomplete collection of army WWII T/O&Es, I can make this general observation - at the battalion level and lower in combat and combat support units (the latter including arty, AAA, TD, chem mortar, etc. - so emphasis on 'combat' rather than 'support'), the vast majority of cooks, clerks, and drivers were issued Garands, the exception being where the entire unit was equipped almost 100% with carbines (as in arty battalions).

[Sentryduty]

From an incomplete collection of army WWII T/O&Es, I can make this general observation - at the battalion level and lower in combat and combat support units (the latter including arty, AAA, TD, chem mortar, etc. - so emphasis on 'combat' rather than 'support'), the vast majority of cooks, clerks, and drivers were issued Garands, the exception being where the entire unit was equipped almost 100% with carbines (as in arty battalions).

Even in modern TO&E this concept holds true, a non-combat trade is issued the most common, basic weapon for the unlikely event they would have to fire it in anger. The cook or clerk isn't going to be spooning out morning slops, or rubber stamping paysheets with a rifle slung or at the ready. In most cases these things are stored nearby in a rack or other convenience, much the same way a fire extinguisher or umbrella might be stored, there for emergency use. The "Gucci kit" items have always been issued to the man at the tip of the spear, the rifleman or support weapons crew, a "cook's carbine" makes no more sense than the infantryman carrying a fine selection of pots and pans to better prepare rations. Sure we got cooking stuff, it was an oversized steel cup, the most cheap, basic piece of messware, because our job was to fight, not to flambe flown in seafood when VIP's arrived in the field.

Right tool for the right job as it were.

Robert, outstanding transcription about Audie Murphy, supports the facts with actual accounts, and was interesting to read. Adds yet another book to my growing list of "must read".