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1,000 Yard Shooting (M1D Garand Sniper Rifle)
Last edited by Badger; 02-25-2013 at 12:19 PM.
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Thank You to Badger For This Useful Post:
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07-07-2008 11:52 AM
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Posted originally when forums were opened, but I noticed that people are asking questions that material like this may help them with .... 
Regards,
Badger
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John Kepler
Guest
Only one little problem with the M1
-D video...it isn't being fired at 1000 yds! I've got an M1-D, I've tried to shoot it at Viale Range at Camp Perry. The scope runs out of elevation at 800 yds give or take.
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another thig is the time from shot to taget is too shot of a time laps. I've shot a lot of 500 meter matches and the time it takes to get to the target is way less in the video than it take at 1000yds
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Contributing Member
did a quick calculation time of flight 2.83 seconds - not corrected for altitude
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John Kepler
Guest
To begin....it's actually a TOUCH quicker when you're shooting a load designed for the range! Having said that...between the flight time and the reaction-time of the crew in the pits....when you are the one on the mat, particularly on your first shot of the string....it's enough time to check your watch, do some of the crossword in the newspaper, take a sip of coffee, pay some bills, check your watch again, all while going through agonies about just what you did to screw-up the shot! When you finally see the target start to move into the hole....it's like getting a pardon on the gallows!
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As far as the scope elevation maxing out. As you guys are probably well aware (preaching to the choir) the Ds were issued several scope types. I don’t know what type of scope the individual was using that had maxed out at 1,000 yards. I am using the Lyman Alaskan M81 (cross hair, not the mil-post), while most Ds used the M82S and the M84s. I am unfamiliar with the 82 and 84s, so I can only speak for the M81 scope.
While most modern scopes, when adjusting the elevation, the crosshairs remain centered, and the optics move. The 81 moves the cross hair visibly and noticeably downward (like the Russian scopes), and when setting it for long distances, the wire nearly reaches the bottom of the field of view.
With that in mind, when mounting this scope, I centered the windage and had the elevation nearly perfectly center, slightly above dead center. With the elevation and windage set dead on, I filed the mount bracket (as the military did with the first Ds) and made the slight adjustments zeroing it out at dead on 300 yards, again, as the military battle settings were. So this rifle, set dead on zeroed (slightly high), is set for 300 yards. When shooting at 1,000 yards, the horizontal wire sets very low, but is not bottomed out as suggested. Although I feel I should point out, I do post a photo, taken through the scope with my camera, looking through the scope at the target. For the photograph, the cross hairs were centered.
Regarding it not being 1,000 yards. Please keep in mind, my attempt here with most all my videos is to profile the antique military rifle, not my personal shooting abilities.
With that in mind, I had a 91.30 video posted, shooting at what I believed at the time was 1,000 yards (supposedly measured by a friend). After posting the video, I checked it manually (after the return sound timing and the shot to impact timing were significantly shorter than what they should have been for a 1,000). I measured it with a friend (by hand with a 100 yard rope) and the 91.30 video that was originally posted as 1,000 yards, actually measured out to only 850. I pulled that video and reposted it with the correction that the target was only 850 yards, not 1,000.
While measuring that, we then walked the same measurement out (this is the high desert, not a formal shooting range) and marked exactly 1,000 yards. Again, hand measured, with a 100 yard rope, x10. Additionally, on the YouTube video, under location, I’ve posted the exact GPS coordinates where I was shooting. It is 1,000 yards, if anyone wishes to dispute the distance I don’t know what to tell them, if they chose to believe it is less than 1,000 so be it.
Mark in Rochester, (who is blocked for spamming my YouTube posts like a borderline stalker) states, did a quick calculation time of flight 2.83 seconds - not corrected for altitude
Mark I don’t know where or how you are doing you math. Compute a 168 grain match round, at 4000 feet altitude, with a temp of 105 degrees. At 2680 FPS bullet flight time to 1000 is 1.57 seconds.
Directly from my DVD, the time stamp works out to 1.5 seconds (roughly). Keep in mind, this is a standard direct to DVD recorder and .07 seconds difference I’m not interested in debating.
Also, per the original DVD recording, the visible impact occurs at exactly frame 1:48.87, and the sound return is caught at 1:51.80, translating to 2.13 seconds to return. The speed of sound, at 105 degrees, is 1,165 FPS, and works out to 2.5 seconds. But my DVD catches it at 2.13 seconds, not 2.5 seconds; this translates to 2492.1 feet, or 830 yards “if based on sound only.”
So, I’ve walked it and measured 1000 yards, per the video-visual timestamp it measures 1000 yards, (possible slightly less), and by sound alone timestamp on a standard DVD recorded (clearly not designed for such use) the sound measures out to the target being roughly 830 yards.
I’m restating this, but my intent here is to demonstrate the rifle. I have numerous military surplus rifles that I am very passionate about; there history, and the soldier who carried them. Let say for the sake of this, that mark goes out and measure it out to be less than 1000 yards, 850, 900, 950…. Oh well. I am making a good faith effort at measuring out a distance in part of demonstrating the rifle. My intent (again) is to profile the rifle, and their capabilities.
And on a final side-note, I will intentionally disregard any and all comments from Mark due to past experiences with him.
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Last edited by Badger; 04-09-2009 at 12:13 PM.
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Contributing Member
new numbers
New calculation
Velocity 2680 fps
Bullet weight 168gr
Altitude 4000 ft
temp 104
ball coef .462
time of flight 1.57
More data = better answer
calculate here http://www.handloads.com/calc/
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The Following 2 Members Say Thank You to Mark in Rochester For This Useful Post:
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John Kepler
Guest
Frankly....the 168 SMK is NOT a 1000 yd. ball (it was designed for 300 meters and is a chronic over-achiever making it adequate for 600 yds.). If it was being shot at true 1000 yds with that MV....it was arriving on target sub-sonic, making hitting much with it far more of a random event than current competition standards will let you get away with. That you were shooting a 168 and staying even close to where you were pointing the rifle is an even clearer indication that the range was something less than 1000 yds.
As for the rest of the comments....I have no dog in this fight, but I AM a fairly compitent Long Range Service Rifle shooter, not a collector, and campaigned a modified .30-06 Garand in that venue for a significant number of years (my 17 year-old son is still shooting it in LR-Service Rifle). I know what it takes to shoot a Garand successfully at 1000 yds....I know what works, and more importantly to this discussion, I know what doesn't. A 168 at 2680 fps doesn't...not reliably. BTW, if you were shooting that load at say Camp Perry....your load would be dropping sub-sonic at around 800 yds and your ability to even hold the load on a 6'-square target highly problematic....you're better at 4000', but not completely out of the woods!
John
ORPA National Long Range Service Rifle Teams "Silver", "Purple", and "Green"
Last edited by John Kepler; 04-09-2009 at 01:56 PM.
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