Dark Green Plastic Bren Oil Bottle

[tombear]

Don't have access to my notes at the mo but at one point the colour of a oil bottle did matter, bottles filled with oil for cold weather conditions were to be painted green ( so perhaps the different colours of the plastic bottles was intentional rather than a accident of what coloured plastic was available ) I've had See through green plastic, see through brown and the pale/ dirty cream ones. I've a vague recollection that the pale cream ones were associated with the oil issued for the 20 mm AA.

I'll see what I can find when I can get to the P. C.

ATB

Tom

[tankhunter]

F10. You are quite correct, in your statement. That the SA80 oil bottle has reverted to plastic once again. They are STILL designed to leak oil the same as all other Oil Bottles in Service used to!.......

Regarding Bren Spare Barrel Carriers. Have you observed that there is a pocket at the top. & one at the bottom for oil bottles?.....
One is for Temperate/Normal conditions oil. The other for Cold Weather use. Whatever colour or material those oil bottles might have been. THAT was how it was done in British Military usage. I don't recall there ever being a metal & plastic one specifically mentioned. For those Two Differing Tempreture spheres of use. But I may be wrong on this, it was a long time ago now!....

And the SPW also had an Oil bottle of the same shape to fit it's internal pocket as well. Making a Total of Three Oil bottles carried by the Gun Section for the LMG itself. & if you include the Rifles carried by each of the Gun 'Number's in that section. They had an oil bottle inside the Butt of each rifle. They weren't going to run out of lubricating oil in a hurry!......

[Peter Laidler]

I don't know if Tankie or Skippy ever found a part number for the leather stopper washer for the leaky tin or plastic oil bottles but I/we never did. In the 70's or so we used an LV6/MT - something vehicle part number for a rubberised neoprene washer that would fit and stop leaks.

As for the plastic SA80 oil containers made by Helix......... The joke at the time was that they were oil tight - from the outside in!

I only recall 3x lots of oil for general use on small arms whatever the temperature. the old OX-52, OX-18 and OX-24. The most common grease was graphite XG-340. Later we used to get a what was called 'graphited' grease, which was much thinner than the original XG-340 which wasn't actually graphite grease but a commercial; so-said equivalent.

[Flying10uk]

Is it the green bottle that there were problems with leakage, Peter? I believe that the other spray oil bottle is later and may still be current issue?

How did/does the spray oil bottle perform in use? When I saw it first I wasn't over impressed but I haven't actually tried using it.

I do find the green type useful in my workshop as an oil bottle but I only keep it in an upright position on a shelf and so I don't have any potential leak issues.

[tombear]

In the extreme conditions of Borneo towards the end or WW2 the Australians were having a problem with carrying enough oil to keep their MGs running that there was a official mod to remove the spout from a standard enamel water bottle and solder on the one from the MG oil bottle MK I with its associated cap and brush. To be carried in a second carrier attached to their 37 pattern webbing, possibly with the local variation that had a pair of C hooks attached to the back so it could be worn directly on the belt ( more out of the way than dangling on the ends of the braces catching on the cover I assume ).

I used to have one of the wartime economy tin plate MK 3 can that had been painted green, sold it on with a bare metal one when I sold off one of my wartime set up holdalls and wallets.

ATB

Tom

[Peter Laidler]

They all seem to leak - eventually!

I'm not sure about the green for tropical or cold climate notion. If this were the case, it would definately be identified in the user handbooks/EMER or Inf Trg pamphlets

[tombear]

It was in a collection of Army Council Instructions printed in 1943 which also lists other documents such as List of Changes that Armourers should be aware of as well as Equipment Regulations, routine procedure army forms etc. Specifically it expands on ACI 1356 of 1940 . I can send the whole document down the wire to anyone who sends me a email address. Originally 3000 copies were printed to be be sent to unit armourers and no doubt there were updates later in the war. It also refers to the ACI 361 of 1940 about Graphite grease and its use in the tropics. There's a table explains which of 4 types of grease or oil is to be used on which gun in which situation.

The relevant bit is

"Oil, low cold test, No. 1" will be carried in any " can, oil, M.G." of existing pattern. Cans used for this purpose will be painted GREEN by the units concerned to identify them from those used to contain existing oils.

Demands for "oil, low cold test, No. 1" and for the supplementary " cans, oil, M.G. " will be submitted by units and T.A. Associations ( for Home Guard units ) on or after 15th October 1940, on the scale of one " can, oil, M.G." ( of any pattern ), for each automatic weapon and 1/2-pint of "oil, low cold test, No. 1" for each gun or machine carbine a year.

Bare in mind the winter of 1939 /40 had been exceptionally harsh and we had just had our arses kicked in Norway so failures in lubricating in cold conditions was probably on the minds of the powers that be.

I believe the Canadians pretty much followed our lead so if they had decided to change to plastic ( which probably wouldn't respond to paint very well at this stage ) it would be logical to order two colours of plastic. And Let's face it Canucks know about the cold! I'm sure they would have been pretty keen on issuing cold weather oil.

In a file at the pattern room library ( that was ) on the development of the Bren holdall there's a note dated August 1940 that mentions the need for carrying two extra lubricants , graphite Grease and " low cold oil"

ATaB

Tom

I'll have a look in the training manuals more in a bit.

[Peter Laidler]

But these ACI's seem to be a bit of a red herring as they pre-date the introduction of the green PLASTIC oil bottles so far as we can tell Tom. Painting the tin ones, yes. Green plastic, no! And in any case, the universal Oil OX52 had replaced OIL, low cold test and others by about 1952.

Here's what I had written down about the oil cans and the CES

BOTTLE, oil, Mk 4 or IV B1/BA 0053 made of brass or Mk 5 B1/BA 6230 of black painted steel, black Bakelite or clear plastic. A part number commencing B1/BA should identify this as being originally issued for use with the rifle. According to which era the reader is interested in or the theatre in which serving, there might be 2 oil bottles in the Bren kit. The first filled with graphite grease and the second filled with Oil ‘A’ or the universal Oil OX52 or more recently, Oil OX18 the current equivalent. Nowadays, the graphite grease is carried in small tubes, usually marked ‘GREASE, Graphite, XG-340’. There are literally hundreds of makers and variations of this little bottle. The materials include black Bakelite, clear plastic and Steel. Its larger cousin, the;

CAN, oil, MG Mk3 C1/BE 6167 D.D.(E.) 1820 of 02-10-1936 or the Canadian pattern C1/CA 0901 is of a similar ilk. There are literally hundreds of manufacturers and dozens of variations including J&RO., BSM., M617 and S251. These include squared, oval, pressed steel and fabricated with soft soldered joints. The brush is retained into the lid by the leather or fibre seal. This can also found itself taken into use with the Vickers MMG kit too. Another similar can, taken from the Vickers MMG kit this time and perfectly acceptable for use with the Bren is the Can, oil, MG Mk1, C1/BD 0133. Like the oil bottle, depending on the theatre in which the gun served, there could be two oil-cans in the gun CES. The first filled with normal oil ‘A’ or the current equivalent and the second, filled with cold test oil. ACI 1356 of 9-11-40 ordered the painting of the latters cans green to differentiate them. From an examination of the CES so far, readers will see that during the life of the Bren, things have changed in many subtle ways. For a Bren enthusiast or collector setting out a CES of, say, 1970 would find it differed slightly from one of 1940.

[tombear]

But surely if you were already using green painted as well as unpainted metal tins from 1940 if you , the Canadian government, decided to replace them with plastic ones in 1943 then you would want to maintain the existing colour coding by making both green and another colour. At some point, when production levels were sufficient they started to supply the British and Australians. Does anyone have a date for when plastic bottles, of what ever colour started being used by the British? When the Canadians went home after the war I know large stocks of kit, spares what have you, were left in Europe, would this be a source of all the plastic bottles?. The 1944 and 1945 MK 3 illustrated parts lists don't list the Canadian plastic bottle, nor the 1947 for all marks. Yet the lists for the L4 series refer to the Canadian pattern bottle.

The 1949 VAOS for MGs Mounting and Appurtenances only lists the metal bottle but the 1960 version lists both.t

The Canadian can was introduced and made obsolescent in the Same List of Changes C9269 of 1959 as a alternative to the metal ones, no clue as to when actually first on issue over here.

ATB

Tom

[tankhunter]

And just to add even more to the Pot & confuse things.

The 7.62mm LMG Oil bottle, was an original Bren brass metal type. Over sprayed in olive green, with yellow lettering upon them!
The lettering was very clear & nicely done......

---------- Post added at 01:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 AM ----------

Is it the green bottle that there were problems with leakage, Peter? I believe that the other spray oil bottle is later and may still be current issue?

How did/does the spray oil bottle perform in use? When I saw it first I wasn't over impressed but I haven't actually tried using it.

I do find the green type useful in my workshop as an oil bottle but I only keep it in an upright position on a shelf and so I don't have any potential leak issues.

The clear Plastic spray bottle is issued with the MK.III SA80 Cleaning kits. It is a black zippered nylon pouch, much smaller than the MK.I & II Green nylon Roll Holders. They still leak of course, as all oil bottles do. But only a SMALL amount & are MUCH better in containing the oil!

The larger Oval containers have black plastic caps. Made from a hard plastic that is very Brittle. & the caps DO fracture with regular monotony!...
I too, have one on my workshop shelf. Also kept upright, it did have a broken cap with the brush inside the lid. I replaced the cap & reinserted the brush.
It now serves on, lubing & cleaning all manner of small Engineering tasks!