Force matched - me no understand

[browningautorifle]

Where does the forum stand on the topic of rifles where the bolt, foreend, magazine, etc have all had the same number applied by a gunsmith assembling them from parts bins? Or even refinishing them and applying the number?

Again, parts guns...simple.

a bit part Armourer

You are SO flippin' funny...

[Eaglelord17]

Where does the forum stand on the topic of rifles where the bolt, foreend, magazine, etc have all had the same number applied by a gunsmith assembling them from parts bins? Or even refinishing them and applying the number?

That is called faking, and it should be condemned in the most serious way possible.

[Flying10uk]

That is called faking, and it should be condemned in the most serious way possible.

I wouldn't describe it as faking if the work has been done properly by an experienced person/gunsmith/armourer. But clearly the resulting gun isn't the same thing as a gun where all the serial numbered parts match and none have been changed since manufacture. That is why I believe that we need some words to describe a gun where the numbers have been changed to match. If "forced matched" is not acceptable then we need some other phrase to describe it. It doesn't really matter what the phrase is provided it is different from "matching numbers".

[Eaglelord17]

I wouldn't describe it as faking if the work has been done properly by an experienced person/gunsmith/armourer. But clearly the resulting gun isn't the same thing as a gun where all the serial numbered parts match and none have been changed since manufacture. That is why I believe that we need some words to describe a gun where the numbers have been changed to match. If "forced matched" is not acceptable then we need some other phrase to describe it. It doesn't really matter what the phrase is provided it is different from "matching numbers".

If it is made from parts why serialize the different parts unless you intended to pass it off as something it isn't? What about renumbering one single part to make it 'all matching'? That is humping/faking and should discouraged at every turn possible. This isn't a new manufacture firearm, its a milsurp and people renumbering the parts post-service is faking in my books as even if they know it isn't original, does the next person? It might not be the original builder who trys and fakes the firearm, it could be several people down the line. It could be the original gunsmith dies and someone who doesn't know better passes it off as all matching. Many different things that can happen, but you see it all the time when the history of the firearm isn't passed on properly and people start claiming it is something it is not due lack of knowledge or purposely trying to screw someone over.

Forced matched as mentioned is primarily used for Soviet arms, and really only applies when the serialized part has been struck out or re-ground in service and renumbered with the new firearms serial number. I wouldn't really use the phrase Force Matched for anything but Soviet arms, as for most milsurps it isn't really a accurate way to describe them.

[mr.e moose]

If it is made from parts why serialize the different parts unless you intended to pass it off as something it isn't? What about renumbering one single part to make it 'all matching'? That is humping/faking and should discouraged at every turn possible. This isn't a new manufacture firearm, its a milsurp and people renumbering the parts post-service is faking in my books as even if they know it isn't original, does the next person? It might not be the original builder who trys and fakes the firearm, it could be several people down the line. It could be the original gunsmith dies and someone who doesn't know better passes it off as all matching. Many different things that can happen, but you see it all the time when the history of the firearm isn't passed on properly and people start claiming it is something it is not due lack of knowledge or purposely trying to screw someone over.

Forced matched as mentioned is primarily used for Soviet arms, and really only applies when the serialized part has been struck out or re-ground in service and renumbered with the new firearms serial number. I wouldn't really use the phrase Force Matched for anything but Soviet arms, as for most milsurps it isn't really a accurate way to describe them.

I agree wholeheartedly with you. I have restored many Lee Enfield's over the years and never have sold one, without the discloser that it is a restored sporter. Mismatched serial numbers tell the story that it is not original.
Even if bolt, receiver, barrel, mag, rear sight and nose cap match, I would still inform the buyer that the wood has been replaced.
I have found many rifles that have serious issues with bolts and receivers, those get cut or crushed. I would rather lose money than endanger someone.
Humping rifles is not something new, Bannerman, Jovino, Mitchell and St. Amour have all done it.

[Frederick303]

This should be titled :


The thread that would not die.

[Homer]

Ok question, if a rifle has a mismatched bolt, once fitted correctly, should it be numbered to match?

[ufo8mydog]

I wouldn't describe it as faking if the work has been done properly by an experienced person/gunsmith/armourer. But clearly the resulting gun isn't the same thing as a gun where all the serial numbered parts match and none have been changed since manufacture. That is why I believe that we need some words to describe a gun where the numbers have been changed to match. If "forced matched" is not acceptable then we need some other phrase to describe it. It doesn't really matter what the phrase is provided it is different from "matching numbers".

My opinion only.

Anything other than a part officially renumbered/replaced by an armourer during military service can't be called "matching".

[Flying10uk]

If the intention of the renumbering is to increase the value of the resulting rifle and to fool people into paying more than they otherwise would then I would describe it as faking/fraud.
If on the other-hand the renumbering has be done for what some would describe as "good house keeping" and the parts have been carefully adjusted where needed to match and the numbers have perhaps been applied by electro-pencil, then I don't have too much of a problem with this.