M1 Carbine ( Bavarian )

[earl canuck]

Deldriver,
I remember while visiting one of the BHAMA Gang friends of mine, he was peeling off the 'BLACK' from the same area on a Bavarian he had just purchased from the south store. It was like a black tar, after removal it clearly read Bavaria Forest etc. Other than that we couldn't find anything out of the norm of a rebuilt US WWII carbine (?) go figure, it was also a late NPM.
I don't own any but will say with the research Jim Mock has done, they are a lot more interesting to me.

Especially a recent Railroad model I believe it was him who had picked up on GB.

Cheers
CH-P777

Hi Charlie,

If I rub that area it does appear the black will come off, but I am hesitant to do so...also, I would think that if it was engraved underneath ( which I think at one point it must have been ) you would be able to see it through the black, but it looks smooth to me, like the engraving was milled off ( or maybe I'm wrong, you wouldn't be able to see the engraving through the black if it was still there? )

---------- Post added at 05:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------

Your location is listed as the great white north which I assume means Canada. Value would be in around the 600-800$ range, you see them come up for sale from time to time in Canada (it actually seems to be more common to see a Bavarian M1 Carbine for sale than a regular M1 Carbine in Canada). Prices are kept down by the fact they are restricted here, which essentially limits them to being a range toy in a uncommon caliber for most people.

Hi Eagle, thanks for the input, yes BC. Yes, being restricted does limit it a bit, but still a fun shooter I was thinking it should be in the range you suggested, but just wanted confirmation from someone else.

[Sunray]

"...why they would put a rear sight on..." Supposedly because the U.S. government thought that German police and Game Wardens were used to using Mauser style sights.
Anyway, U.S. values do not apply in Canada. Also assuming Earl's in Canada. Be surprised if you could get $600-$800 in Canada. Definitely not a range toy unless your club is rated for restricted rifles.
"...No, which I think is a good thing..." That's a good thing no matter what.
"...(re)imported before a certain date..." Yep. U.S. Gun Control Act of 1968 banned the return of any Lend/Lease firearm. Anyway, Century did not use an electric pencil, they stamped.

[painter777]

Century did not use an electric pencil, they stamped

From what I read on Jim M's Bavarian carbine web site, found about halfway down the page in the link below;

"At the time that Century Arms imported these carbines, they operated a second headquarters in St. Laurent, Quebec, Canada. Some of the weapons that they imported from abroad went to Canada first, and then were forwarded to their St. Albans facility. Century Arms sold to wholesalers in Canada. More than a few of these M1 carbines are owned by Canadians. Most have no import mark. A few in Canada that have been found to have the Century Arms import mark have been traced to sources within the U.S.A."


" Century Arms had ordered the dies for their importer stamping, but when the first M1 carbines arrived in St. Albans, VT they had not yet received them. Rather than wait, due to the volume of carbines they had to deal with and the pressure to get them moving for sales, they used hand held engravers instead. The mark was placed on the left side of the receiver about even with the receiver ring, partially above and below the stock"

"After they received their dies, the import mark was placed on the bottom or side of the barrel."

Here's the link, look at the section titled- Century Arms Inc.

LINK:

U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

FWIW,
Charlie-Painter777

[new2brass]

I would argue it has a bit more value to the right collector. How many do you see that retain the relocated rear sight with filled dovetail! the dovetail is not ground down. it is filled and serrated as mentioned to reduce glare.
Another plus with the Bavarians is that they tend to have parts "as left the factory" which in my opinion adds value.

the negatives are that someone attempted to remove the left rail "Bavarian" marks. stock and hand guard clearly saw service on another carbine, however it looks as if stock never saw a type 2 or 3 band, a plus to a collector.
The Bavarian markings in my opinion add provenance. we know they served during the war and directly after stayed in the German states.

Look at the rear tang of the trigger housing, does it have the last 4 of serial?

[Drill Sergeant]

Another STRONG recommendation that you contact U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

Ask your question there. You will be dealing with 'Da MAN' of Bavarian Carbines. Jim is responsive, highly knowledgeable and true gentleman. Then, if you have time, you can check out the two Carbines that I have contributed to his site.

Let us know of his input.

[browningautorifle]

Also assuming Earl's in Canada.

You folk have to understand these guns are in Canada, so US value and ardor don't apply... It's all conjecture.

[painter777]

someone attempted to remove the left rail "Bavarian" marks.

It's stated somewhere on Jims site that it was required that the AGENCY NAME be removed, before transfer to another AGENCY, or returned.... Something like that, but sure I read it somewhere on the site.

I'll try looking, while waiting on dinner ;-)..

And to Drill Sergeant,
I couldn't agree more with your advice to take it to Jim, truly a knowledgeable man, full of passion and highly respected by all of us.

Charlie-Painter777

P.S. Also thought I read that the other number (not matching serial number, may have meant something other than a serial number... aka like a service district) but not positive without more researching JM's site deeper for a re-fresher course!

[painter777]

U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

Pulled From This Section:
Disposition of the U.S. M1 carbines in Bavaria:
Bavarian Department of the Interior) ordered the Bayerisches Waffenamt to remove the Bavaria Rural Police markings from these carbines before they were turned over to Niedersachsen.

How many of these carbines had the Bavaria agency names removed is not known. The order was issued, but at some point it was no longer obeyed, as revealed by Bavaria's sale of carbines to Austria. In 1955 another 900 M1 carbines were sold by Bavaria to Baden-Wurttemberg for their police.

U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

On 01 October 1952 Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) obtained a loan of 500 of Bavaria's U.S. M1 carbines. All of the carbines were marked "Bavaria Rural Police". Bavaria's Waffenamt office was ordered by Bavaria to remove the Bavaria agency markings from the carbines. Niedersachsen did not mark the carbines. An additional 2200 M1 carbines were obtained from Bavaria by Niedersachsen by 1955, when all were collectively paid for by Niedersachsen. It is not known if Bavaria required the markings from the later carbines be removed.

After Niedersachsen, Bavaria sold carbines to European gunbrokers, who wholesaled them to other brokers. Two gunbrokers in Zurich are known to have removed the German police markings and covered this receiver area with a black epoxy type substance. Some buyers would not buy the carbines if they had the German markings on them, or preferred not to have the German markings on the carbines they bought. This practice was apparently not uncommon amongst wholesalers. Some used a black paint instead of the epoxy that can easily be scraped off with a fingernail. Others chose not to use a black covering, usually having done a very professional job in removing the marks, polishing the receiver area, and cold bluing the effected area.

Best I can do right now, HTH

Charlie-painter777

[earl canuck]

I would argue it has a bit more value to the right collector. How many do you see that retain the relocated rear sight with filled dovetail! the dovetail is not ground down. it is filled and serrated as mentioned to reduce glare.
Another plus with the Bavarians is that they tend to have parts "as left the factory" which in my opinion adds value.

the negatives are that someone attempted to remove the left rail "Bavarian" marks. stock and hand guard clearly saw service on another carbine, however it looks as if stock never saw a type 2 or 3 band, a plus to a collector.
The Bavarian markings in my opinion add provenance. we know they served during the war and directly after stayed in the German states.

Look at the rear tang of the trigger housing, does it have the last 4 of serial?

No, I have seen examples of those rifles....mine does not; I included all markings I could find in my original post.

---------- Post added at 04:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 PM ----------

U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

Pulled From This Section:
Disposition of the U.S. M1 carbines in Bavaria:
Bavarian Department of the Interior) ordered the Bayerisches Waffenamt to remove the Bavaria Rural Police markings from these carbines before they were turned over to Niedersachsen.

How many of these carbines had the Bavaria agency names removed is not known. The order was issued, but at some point it was no longer obeyed, as revealed by Bavaria's sale of carbines to Austria. In 1955 another 900 M1 carbines were sold by Bavaria to Baden-Wurttemberg for their police.

U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

On 01 October 1952 Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) obtained a loan of 500 of Bavaria's U.S. M1 carbines. All of the carbines were marked "Bavaria Rural Police". Bavaria's Waffenamt office was ordered by Bavaria to remove the Bavaria agency markings from the carbines. Niedersachsen did not mark the carbines. An additional 2200 M1 carbines were obtained from Bavaria by Niedersachsen by 1955, when all were collectively paid for by Niedersachsen. It is not known if Bavaria required the markings from the later carbines be removed.

After Niedersachsen, Bavaria sold carbines to European gunbrokers, who wholesaled them to other brokers. Two gunbrokers in Zurich are known to have removed the German police markings and covered this receiver area with a black epoxy type substance. Some buyers would not buy the carbines if they had the German markings on them, or preferred not to have the German markings on the carbines they bought. This practice was apparently not uncommon amongst wholesalers. Some used a black paint instead of the epoxy that can easily be scraped off with a fingernail. Others chose not to use a black covering, usually having done a very professional job in removing the marks, polishing the receiver area, and cold bluing the effected area.

Best I can do right now, HTH

Charlie-painter777

Thanks painter, yes I had read that info already....really hard to know for sure what route the carbine took without them recording serials, which I am sure was probably just too much trouble for them considering the volume of guns that they were moving.