I like the SA80

[blurrededge]

It's funny how things work out sometimes!
I've just recently finished watching the latest batch of YouTube videos from the Forgotten Weapons series on the SA80 and it's development. From the XL60 series of Enfield Weapon Systems right up to the current L85A2 and just touching on the new HKA3 upper receiver development. I'd reccomend watching the vids if you haven't already they're pretty good with info along the lines of what's in the book "The last Enfield" which gets a plug in another video from the series. He gets the chance to do a little shooting of an EWS in 4.85 and an A2 down at Shrivenham and the slow motion footage is interesting stuff.
I also recently and purely coincidentally had the extremely good fortune of putting two 30rd mags of 5.56 through a semi-auto only L98A2 SA80 and I must say I loved it, what a joy to shoot, with little felt recoil, well compared to .303 or .308 that I normally shoot anyway, admittedly it's the only semi auto centrefire rifle I've shot so.......
With iron sights fitted, which isn't my preferred way to shoot I turned in a really good group at 300yds, what a rifle, made me look good! It did leave me thinking why can't I have one of these, bloody hell, not fair.
I've never served in the military and have no experience of this rifle in service conditions, I'm purely a civilian shooter and firearm enthusiast but I watched 3 of these rifles on the range shoot hundreds of rounds all day without any stoppages other than needing a quick turn of the gas plug due to fouling. If I could, I'd have one of these A2s tomorrow in semi auto, with a nice optic and happily shoot targets all day long with it.
I also noticed it was an 87 dated Enfield made rifle too, which was apt I thought and that's why I posted my observations here.

Information

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[Peter Laidler]

There's no doubt whatsoever that the first rifles were a pig in a poke but the A2 has earned its stripes. I was fortunate enough to see the trials that corrected most of the faults and be there when the A2 was trialed at Warminster. No complaints now I feel. But I do wish those that really should know better STILL say that H&K improived it. H&K titivated it while they were incorporating the modifications designed and developed here but put into one big upgrade programme by H&K.

[Flying10uk]

Is the U.K. Government/MOD obliged to use H&K for all future upgrades and refurbishment work to the SA80, Peter, or could another suitably qualified company take on the work, perhaps a British or American company?

[Peter Laidler]

The answer to the Q you ask is commercially sensitive so I think that I will leave it at that

[enfield303t]

Boggles the mind the Brits could design such a POS as the SA80 and have serious doubts the new version is loved by end users. Hundred of millions of pounds on a gun that possibly is acceptable to a civilian shooter on range day. I wonder what the total cost has been since conception.

I still think they can't be fired comfortably from the left shoulder and see the Royal Marines that guard the Trident have gone to a AR platform that is described as being a "more powerful" firearm?? Both 5.56 and maybe the use of a heavier projectile is considered to be more powerful?? That sounds like it was written by a politician.

Volumes have been written about this failure and I think the quote I post below does a decent job of summing up a poor design and anything but a favourite for those who used it.

"after the most careful preparation, of those whom I observed, not one managed to complete the CQB course without at least one stoppage and some had repeated stoppages. Some 50% of these appeared to be magazine related and a further 30% may have been caused by the ingress of dirt. What happens in the Gulf, happens in Wales, too; and there is not too much sand flying about in Sennebridge. None, in point of fact."23

Indeed, the problems encountered with the use of these weapons in desert or sandy conditions, far from being new ones, had been apparent at the beginning of 1987, with a internal Army document outlining a 'sand ingress problem', as well as the various User and Troop Trials from 1981 onwards.

"It came as no surprise to me that the soldiers in the Gulf should have had these problems, since it was reported to me, by a person involved in the recording of the 1985 trials, that the SA80 had been submitted to the standard sand test three times and each time it failed, miserably. To that person's knowledge, it was never re-submitted after the last failure and, quite clearly, no work had been done since to solve that particular and most significant shortcoming."24

A report, entitled 'Equipment Performance (SA80) During Operation Granby (the Gulf War)', undertaken by the Land Systems Evaluation Team (LANDSET) after the conflict had finished, was scathing in its criticism of the weapon system.

The cocking handle was on the right-hand side, along with its ejection to the right means that the weapon has to be fired from right shoulder, problematical for left-handed shooters, as well as causing problems while firing from left of cover.
Weight – an SA80, fully loaded with SUSAT is just 80g lighter than the L1A1.
Balance problems – the bullpup design along with the position of the SUSAT sight, the use made of stamped sheet steel for the main body and nylon for the pistol grip and fore-grip makes the weapon butt-heavy, a factor that exacerbates the high recoil when firing on automatic.
High-sighting plane – the firer has to expose more of him or herself to fire over cover.
Hard trigger pull – has an impact on accuracy.
The position of selector switch and magazine release catch on the left-side of the weapon but away from the pistol grip means the firer could loose target acquisition if he needs to change magazine or the rate of fire. Also, the magazine release catch could be accidentally pressed when carried against the chest.
The sling cannot be used as an aid to shooting.
The shoulder-butt strap was configured to sit too high when the LSW was in the shoulder and served no useful purpose.
The lack of a changeable barrel and belt-feed option on the LSW might limit its sustained fire capability.

Additional early problems included:

The discovery that the weapon could fire if dropped muzzle first onto a hard surface with the safety off from more than three metres.
The rate of fire was between 50 and 100 rounds per minute less than expected.
The LSW occasionally ejected a case into the firer's face and magazines were difficult to fit when the bolt was closed.17
Concern that use of the SUSAT would lead to the infantryman loosing track of the 'bigger picture' and ignoring dangers on the edge of their peripheral vision.18

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_SA80.html

Well written article.

Should have gone to the Tavor the moment it was adopted by the IDF.

[browningautorifle]

Should have gone to the Tavor

I REALLY don't like the Tavor though...glad I don't need to carry one of those.

[enfield303t]

I REALLY don't like the Tavor though...glad I don't need to carry one of those.

They take a while to get used to, my son has one (X95) and personally prefer a AR but it is a great gun and functions flawlessly. I think they are worth the $,$$$.$$.

[browningautorifle]

I have a couple guys here that can't get theirs to group under a pie plate...the barrel varies in it's internal tolerances. Strange that...you might wonder how I found that out. Anyway, this isn't about Tavor...

[Frederick303]

Not to try and hi-jack this, but the Tavor needs a hex nut to disassemble it sufficient to really give it a decent cleaning. You cannot get to all the bits you need to clean with the no tool field strip. Any weight distribution issues with the L85A2 exist with the Tavor.

Notice the Israeli army has been replacing the M16 rifles with it for about 15 years (started in 2002 and was supposed to be compete by 2006) and the completion date...now it is 2018. Some how for the past 12 years the final change over date of 2006 has kept moving out while the Israeli army went form the M16A1 based units to the M4 like carbines. Maybe the changeover will happen, but it seems to me it is a commercial venture that is not quite up to the big time but makes money, so it sees some light use. Sorry, needs to be said.

back to the SA80. Sure wish we could have gotten some of the (proposed) self loading commercial rifles of the late 1980s over here (US) or even some of the L98A2 self loading rifles today. Might not be the worlds best rifle, but it has always had a certain appeal, being kind of the son of the No 9 rifle (EM2). Likely the last UK MOD designed rifle in our lifetime.

[browningautorifle]

I wonder if seriously...we should just start a Tavor thread? I do have a couple of points I'd expound on and we seem to have more happening...we don't want to split this thread too badly? Maybe I'll find a spot to start it?