T3 with Non infrared scope? Fact or fiction?

[Bruce McAskill]

The early T3 was used in at lest two different campaigns in the Pacific during WW2. Okinawa and in the Philippines where it performed very well. The M1E7 was made up by Inland and the commercial scope was the only one available to them at the time which was the same as the military version used on the 03. But the scope could not take a beating and it was discontinued by the military as not practical. No scope was really needed out to 150 yards like they thought a carbine sniper would have performed best at. Iron sights were more then enough as the M1 carbine was not an accurate target rifle. And fighting house to house a scope only was a hindrance.

[jdmcomp]

My apology, it was said in jest and nothing more. And i did explain that I do not have skin in the game, just looking for facts/sources. After all if I had a source then there is nothing to discuss.

[firstflabn]

My apology, it was said in jest and nothing more. And i did explain that I do not have skin in the game, just looking for facts/sources. After all if I had a source then there is nothing to discuss.

We're good. I appreciate it. If we were face to face, the identical statements accompanied by a wry smile or a wink wouldn't even be noticed. This kite string and paper cup communication method has its limitations.

I'm still in the dark on what you base your theory on, so I have to cover all the weak points.

First, it's pretty safe to say the batch of 811 T3s did not go to the South Pacific (with or without conventional optics) - unless it was for storage. The SPA had been officially redesignated a supply zone 5-10 months before these 811 were produced. Not much call for a new toy in a quiet area. If your sources suggest they did, I would have qualms about relying on any other claims from the same source.

Second, why do I think the 811 T3s didn't go to the SPA during WWII under any scenario, regardless of how unlikely? Because they went somewhere else. I have a 31 Aug 45 Ordnance report showing that during the first 6 months of 1945, 809 T3s were sent to the Corps of Engineers (presumably for Sniperscope electronics installation) and the other 2 went somewhere in the Zone of the Interior (likely either for testing, or maybe photographing for FMs, PR, etc.)

I don't think anyone would posit that the Engineers were authorized to install conventional scopes on any Ordnance equipment. Had the 809 T3s somehow gone to the Engineers, then a change of plan occurred and they were sent back to Ordnance for conventional scope installation, that transfer would show up on this report. No such indication occurs.

My guess is these 809 sat around stateside with the Engineers waiting for the M2 Sniperscope electronics design to be approved and the equipment manufactured - and then the war ended. I would refer you to CCNL 368 for details on the ones that got used on Okinawa. No evidence has been presented on use in the Philippines other than the 50 sent to the SW Pacific Area for training sometime around late Sept 44. These are clearly not from the 811.

What happened after V-E Day is outside my research interest, so I'll leave that to others.

[jdmcomp]

Now, moving on, the Korean war. Were any non IR scopes mounted on the T3 during Korea? The early Inland experiment seems to point to "no" but having served in the military, I can attest that what ever could happen likely did. One example was the rejected M1D being brought back. Thanks to all for interest, unicorns are difficult to research.

[firstflabn]

You're welcome.

[Bruce McAskill]

The answer is no. Just like in WW2 there were NO scoped rifles issued. They could not take the beating of fired cases hitting the scopes and the big reason was there was no need for one as the range of the 30 carbine was useable in.