SOMETHING DOESN'T FEEL RIGHT

[LowSpeed]

True, what I'm getting at is that while it makes no sense to a casual observer, not to friends and especially family but to the person who did take their own life it did made sense and they reasoned their way to that decision. I'm not saying they were thinking normally, purely from their vantage point and clouded vision it made sense This can often be seen when you look at circumstances from their eyes as much as is possible since you can't ask them, not the family or friends perceptions of them. At that point you can determine how they came to reach that decision, their motive so to speak and why they felt there was no other solution. As a person it won't make any sense to me but as an investigator it's not how I see it, it only matters how they saw it. In those terms there is often a logic and a decision making process that's gone through and it can be seen from as close perspective as you can reasonably reach to theirs. They're not reasonable people but there is a type of reasoning they carry out prior to.

[browningautorifle]

I'm not saying they were thinking normally,

They're not reasonable people

Both true. A murder also believes he's doing the correct thing. They're not in their right mind. I don't care if they think they're right.

[LowSpeed]

I agree, though most of the murderers I've met were just plain old mean. The crime of passion ones not so much.

A murder is a good example of what I've been trying to express. He has a motive, it's critical to proving that a particular person committed the murder. His motive nearly always fits some sort of logic. Not a logic that fits usually a normal system of values, but a logic nonetheless. This is where juries get wrapped around their own axle.

My original post was mostly concerning the reason behind that pilot choosing such an unusual method to kill himself, if it does bear out to be a suicide. He had a reason to choose that public horrific manner. He was trying to say something to someone or cause someone in particular to feel very guilty and horrified, scarred even. There is a reason for it just as there was for his choice to end his life. In context it will make sense, not make it right, but allow the investigator to say "that's why".

A suicide isn't much different. Critical to proving it was a suicide is the reason why. Without uncovering one lots of suicides would be hard to clear up. No good witnesses (not to the actual act but background types) no notes. They were uncommon but we seemed to get a couple of those each year in the 2nd leading county of the 7th leading state for suicides.
In order to prove it was a suicide to myself, the prosecutor and most importantly to surviving family I had to have a reason why and it had to make sense in the context of the decedents life. Most of the time it won't make sense to the family for quite a while and that's completely understandable. I have a good grasp on that via family members who've taken their own life and a good friend and colleague who did as well.

I'm sure there's someone on this site who has worked more of these than me, maybe they'll speak up. I hope this thread is going to die a natural death, I'm starting to feel like "Deputy Doom" again.
/R/ Jamey

[Gil Boyd]

A couple of points that have been missed, and will feature heavily in a detailed investigation by their Military Police are:

1. He could have made a major impact by piling the aircraft into the ground with all on board at anytime.................or,

2. He could have simply thrown the kill switch or even thrown the stick over so severely, ensuring the co-pilot had no chance of recovery when he noticed the pilot had left the cabin.

Which one has to conclude, he knew what he wanted to do and where he wanted to do it, without harming any of his peers, and wanted to make a statement of his own about something or to someone. An intelligent man who probably left a note or spoken words to who he had the gripe with one suspects!

Yes the cause will be an interesting one when it comes in surrounding a suicide, however, you are still left with, the only other option, did he act alone, was he conscious when he left the aircraft taking the enquiry down a different path, all will no doubt be revealed in time.

As I understand it, this was an "in house Military show", from my experience this whole sad case should therefore have been kept in house and not given to the press in the way it was.
Military "on duty" deaths or accidents are always stated "Soldier killed on exercise and the Military authorities are investigating".
Never ever, seen any Military authorities advertise in this way to the worlds press IMHO and thats why I called the thread "Something doesn't feel right"!!.

[Flying10uk]

Which one has to conclude, he knew what he wanted to do and where he wanted to do it, without harming any of his peers, and wanted to make a statement of his own about something or to someone. An intelligent man who probably left a note or spoken words to who he had the gripe with one suspects!

I did state, in post 5, that he put other peoples lives at risk because he could have landed in the canopy of one of the parachutists on the way down, causing it to collapse, or he could have hit someone on the ground. Having a human body land on top of you after a fall from a great height is, in all probability, going to kill whoever it lands on.

[LowSpeed]

Yes indeed there is going to be quite a bit of work to do.

I have no idea how Belgian authorities handle such things. Part of me hopes it's a dual investigation, part of me wishes they'd keep it in house. Does anyone know how they go about freedom of information in Belgium. Being in the E.U. they'll either have a rule forcing them to release whether the decedent was wearing boxers or briefs or they'll have a rule keeping them from confirming there even was a helicopter crash.

I do know U.S. crash investigations are released in as much as at least the findings of the direct cause of the crash, not sure if they provide the entire report of investigation though I'd imagine it comes in volumes. I can think of numerous crashes off hand that I've read the findings of either the F.A.A. or the board which directs the investigation and rules on the cause or causes of the crash. Blue Angels crash last year in Tennessee, Thunderbirds crash after flying over USAF Academy graduation last year (or year before), B-52 crash several years ago in which the crew was killed IIRC at Fairchild AFB, Marine F18 that crashed shortly after takeoff from RAF Lakenheath which I think crashed into the fens, USAF F111 that flew into a mountainside at night in Wales from RAF Upper Heyford I think, USAF Thunderbird that crashed after pilot failed to adjust his altimeter for sea level plus elevation of the airport he was at, USAF helicopter from RAF Lakenheath that crashed near the ocean in Norfolk (county, not Virginia) killing a pararescue airman on board. Often if it's an aircraft lost over hostile territory they won't release anything that would lead the opposition to confirm a certain tactic was effective. I want to say that if the crash occurs in U.S. civilian airspace The F.A.A. investigates as well but I'm not 100% on that. I believe the same may be true in The U.K. as well though it could possibly be the MoD. Anyone interested could google the helicopter crash I mentioned earlier as it's the most recent and should be easy to find.

Gil Boyd you're on certainly on point as to all the avenues of investigation they're going to have to proceed on unless they happen to develop some good information quickly that rules out stuff while confirming other stuff. A thorough investigation would run down those dead ends anyway just to document they are indeed dead ends due to the high profile nature of the incident and especially if it's deemed to be a suicide because any loose ends no matter how off the wall potentially gives the family something to latch onto to keep them from believing their loved one took his own life. There are certainly a lot of relevant areas of concern that need to be examined quickly and thoroughly just related to the physical evidence at hand. In a perfect world the answers would be found quickly right there negating having to get into everyones personal business.

There is the other crewmember to eliminate which makes me wonder what type of data recorders the helicopter is equipped with, wonder what the military added to the aircraft or what they had the maker exclude from it via the contract. Along a similar line a Virginia State Police helicopter crashed last month killing both Trooper - Pilots. I was surprised o hear that it was not equipped with a voice recorder. I wonder (doubt) the helicopter in question had anything recording weight on the seat or restraint harness usage, etc. In some respects the investigators are lucky in that there were people around and it occurred in a populated area yet didn't have half of Belgium roaming over the scene before they could locate and secure it.

The P.R. people need to seriously look at their information release policy due to the high profile and unusual nature of this fellows death. Is's likely to create a media stampede. The tabloid press will fan the flames with as much innuendo as they can; buying witnesses etc The longer it goes before they put definitive end to the story the more manufactured inferences will be published. I learned a long time ago that you're better off telling the media something because if you don't they'll find someone who will and they don't care if it's even close to the truth. If they establish what happened it's better for all involved if they put the minimal facts out there. The media will print it, people will read it and then move on to the next tragedy. If they don't the media will keep the story going by whatever means they can to keep the paper sales and website counts up. The family will have to deal with it but it's easier on them to have it over and done with as opposed to month after month of sensationalism involving their loved one.

[LowSpeed]

I just realized I didn't state that I'm assuming they'll treat this as they would a crash and release information likewise. It just now struck me that there's more of chance they wouldn't than they would.

I tried to edit it but I waited too long so this is my addendum.

I see it more as starting off as an investigation into human error or equipment failure during flight that caused an injury or death due to something that happened during the operation of the aircraft.

I've been told I see things uniquely but I think they were just trying to be nice. I suppose this is an example of my unique view of things.

[Gil Boyd]

Jamey,
If you refer to the Black Hawk that came down in Norfolk UK killing all four crew members, the release of that to the media "in Military terms " was inevitable, as it was in a wild life area on the Norfolk coast and found by local people before Lakenheath had even mobilised its response, when they realised it was "missing" on the night ex.
I know a lot of the Special Ops guys at Lakenheath and due to a number of elements including Comms/Low flying under radar heights etc, they didn't know what happened, which is often the cause with bird strikes, and you can imagine that was one of the worst areas to fly over in terms of that!!!
Black Hawk helicopter crash in Norfolk that killed four was caused by bird-strike | Daily Mail Online

My view was why they needed in Belgium to say anything.............sad for all concerned including the pilots family IMHO

[Merle]

I've ever known one chap to commit suicide, by taking an overdose, because another man got his wife pregnant. It seemed sad that he couldn't find another way to resolve his problems.

The wrong man took the pills......

[LowSpeed]

Yep, that's the one. Agreed, terrible place to be if you're looking to not see birds. The information that was released wasn't much different than if it was an FAA determination though. The only difference being if it had been a civilian aircraft flying in that manner it would've been addressed. I'm going to assume they were flying in an area where restrictions were relaxed since it was a TX and not just some guy out hotdogging as was the case with the B-52 crash I mentioned. Apparently they won't have to worry about that much longer I read that the SAR bunch is relocating to another base, I can't recall if it said where they were going or not. I try to keep up with happenings at the old home place lol. Occasionally I will Google earth my old dorm or check out some of my friends houses, see if they've redone their garden lol.

As far as the Belgian incident the high profile nature will create the demand for information and like I mentioned before with the press "if it bleeds it leads" by just putting it out there it kills the story as opposed to letting them run wild with it and create a dozen tawdry trashy suppositions. Of course if you follow the medias lack of ethics full circle the blame lies with all of us, if we didn't buy a copy, watch that channel or click on it there would be no reason for them to potentially ruin a reputation or cause unneeded or misdirected guilt. I'll be the first person to say I'm as bad as anyone else.

I would assume if they treat it as a suspicious death and eventually determine it's a suicide they could probably get away with just stopping there unless there's a freedom of information law there that would compel the Belgian defense ministry, or is it department? Anyway, the Belgian Army to release the entire report of investigation with minimal redactions. To me the story should end with a cause of death, that's the end of the story but you know as well as I do there are loads of people who will try to get every last bit of bad news they possibly can. It's no different than people rubber necking at a bad car crash, or me watching this hurricane demolish Florida right now.