Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk I (T)

[Peter Laidler]

Those rings around the numbers indicate modern number stamps to me and not the sort issued in our tool kits.

[Giove]

You are confirming my doubts. Thanks.

[Roger Payne]

Actually, the additional photo's are so dark it's hard to tell much from most of them, although the most relevant one to the scope number is the best, & I would have to say that it does look suspicious to me too. I'm not so concerned about the rings round the numbers (although they are super bold), but that the whole area of the wrist looks like it's been pretty beaten up in the past, with the (current) numbers stamped over. So, was there something underneath? It's clearly a real 4T with a real scope & bracket but the scope number, in the context of the underlying & surrounding bit of wrist, looks a bit suspect. Just my tuppence worth.

[Promo]

Those rings around the numbers indicate modern number stamps to me and not the sort issued in our tool kits.

My 1944 all matching BSA No. 4 T has these "rings" too, so I would not question it too much. And to avoid questioning my BSA rifle I may attach all pics of it too...

[Gil Boyd]

Peter,
I probably agree in principle with you, about the stamping of numbers into wood, but I have seen several absolutely authentic T's with a faint circle evident around them.
Were your issued set of stamp numbers standing proud of the shaft and the ring would only prove itself if struck too hard?
Look at phot six above for example over struck stock

[muffett.2008]

Gotta say, I agree partly with Pete.
My original stamps were cut away so that the boss would not mark the surface.
However, I have a set of my fathers stamps that date back to the 40's with the round boss.

The forewood stampings into the timber in 6 show bruising from the boss, this stamp pattern would normally only be used on metal, where the penetration would not allow the boss to contact the metal............unless you were a gorilla.
The butt stampings are correct, using the cut away stamps, notice the depth of penetration.

[Giove]

Don't you think the scope S.N. looks too high on the wrist?

Were the serial numbers on the wrist and on the fore-end printed both by H. & H.?

[Roger Payne]

I just got off my fat lazy aXXe (censored UK & antipodean spelling) & went & looked at eight original No4 T butts in my garage. I've had them years & their origin is beyond reproach. Some have had the original scope number barred out & a second scope serial number applied, & some have only the original number. All of them have been numbered (or renumbered in service) with the older style stamps where the surrounding metal to the number itself is ground away, leaving no 'ring' around the number. I was & still felt that the rifle offered giove is suspect in having been given a replacement scope, but I was less concerned about the 'rings' around the stamps than the disturbed look to the wrist underlying them, but it looks like the 'rings' might be a useful indicator of possible post-war tampering......as Peter intimated.

What I have noticed is that when 4T's have the rifle number applied along the forend, it always seems to be done with the 'modern' stamps, 'with ring', as it were, so this may also answer giove's question.

So maybe it's 'wrist - no ring; forend - ring'. It would be interesting to see if many (original) rifles differ from this.

[Surpmil]

What do you think about the S.N. on the wrist?
It seems to me a bit odd: too high on the wrist and with a circle around every digit.

Scope is a Mk 3 with eye-shade (??).

Giancarlo

Is this an Italian converted rifle or a British one? If it was put together in Italy then we have no idea what is correct.

OK, I see your later photos show a British conversion. It's obviously been modified or massaged somewhere (Italy?), but your photos don't enlarge so it is hard to tell. Can you upload larger ones?

The fitting of the sliding shades is quite strange as most users found them a curse they glad to be rid of I understand. Based on some things I see that I see no need to go into, I'm beginning to think the aftermarket No.4(T) workshop somewhere in Italy likes to fit these for reasons best known to themselves.

Someone has recently touched up both ends of the cased scope with BBQ spray paint by the look of it.

Number stamps used to be made in quite different ways from what we see now: they did not have the round shoulders, which is why they left no round "shadow", no matter how deeply they were struck. The stock wrist numbers on Promo's rifle above are a good example: very deeply struck, but no "shadow".

Other things about stamps have changed over time, but we're not running a school for fakers here, so I'll just leave it at that.

(I believe I see a trough in the wrist shown below where the previous number(s) were filed or sanded out.)

[Giove]

Hello Surpmil.

Thi rifle is a British conversion. I don't think the sliding shades was added in Italy, it isn't a rifle left here after WW II, but an imported rifle (from Germany?).

The conclusion we had arrived at, was that the SN on the wrist aren't original.