Another Lee Enfield Sniper

[Roger Payne]

I might have misunderstood Gil, but I didn't think Giancarlo was suggesting that the rifle that started this particular thread was a real Italian set up No4 (T) (or a British or Canadian one, for that matter), but that the bracket could be from one, & presumably, be of Italian manufacture, rather than just a modern commercial repro bracket. Also, that some 4T's manufactured by the Italians do exist. This is news to me, but I'd be interested enough to have a look at his photo's of the rifles in his own collection which he believes to be of this origin, if he'd be kind enough to share them with us.

[Gil Boyd]

Roger,
Agree there totally, its a language thing, perhaps I too misunderstood his phrase:

Gil Boyd, it's not always like that, I learned it right on this forum.

Giancarlo,
Good luck with finding the rifle, as I too have never heard of an Italian made 4T, alwys willing to learn.

[Promo]

I also know of Italian "made" (which would better be described as "converted") No. 4 T rifles. They, at least to my point of view, are hard to impossible to authenticate, since they basically are No. 4 rifles with a No. 32 scope. I am not aware of a distinguishing marking or way of manufacturing which would identify one of them as an "original" (Italian) conversion.

[Giove]

Hi Gil Boyd.

You misunderstood me. I certainly expressed myself badly I'm sorry, English isn't my mother tongue.

You haven't burst bubbles, I am aware that the rifle, in the thread, is a fake and I don't want either buy or sell it. I said only that the scope and the brachet are original, but made or reworked in Italy, post WW2, for the Italian Army.

Thank you for the useful information you have posted. I am here to compare and learn.
What I wanted to say was that the markings: T, TR, S, S51, etc. aren't always present on an original British sniper rifle.

Sincerely. Giancarlo

[Gil Boyd]

Giancarlo,
No worries at all. Hope there was enough there I posted, and from other members to assist you.
In terms of the pre nomitures on 4T's, I don't think I have seen many without those tale tale signs stamped in at H&H or whereever. I would certainly look for the S stamped into the metalwork on the ejection side, to prove the action had been selected, as I would the woodwork, and the T/TR stamped on the wrist and the other side of the action, with designated and correct T's.
I do see where you are coming from, as on occasions not all would be in place, more from an oversight rather than mix and match, later in service.
Others may have a varied opinion, I have only ever owned three all Maltby 4T rifles and all heavily stamped with "Pride".

[Giove]

Thanks Gil Boyd. I agree with you in general, but this my 1941 BSA have no T, no S nor the particular inspection mark.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=62692

My "Indianized" 1944 BSA 4T haven't the S51 because the butt-stock was replaced in India (it has the Indian depot mark).

[Giove]

It isn't real impossible to distinguish an original (Italian) from a fake.

Here an original (non mine). Note the Smle magazine.

[Giove]

and a fake (not mine, fortunately). Only the scope is authentic.

[Roger Payne]

Some interesting learning points here Giancarlo; so the cradle clamp numbering on the rifle that started the thread is in fact correct for an Italian set up rifle (although the rifle itself is a fake): the number is the same on both clamps, but there is an 'A' prefix preceding the number on the rear clamp, & a 'B' prefix on the front clamp. This is worth noting for future reference, as well as the precise shape of the Italian made brackets. Did the prefix letters advance through the alphabet, or were only the letters A & B utilised?

Thanks for sharing the photo's with us.

[Giove]

Also this bracket is neither British nor Canadian? Because I have my very personal and wacky theory about the "Italian brackets".

Yes, there are only the letters A and B; only the figures change.