Another Lee Enfield Sniper

[Giove]

IMO you have an Italian produced MkII scope

Why do you think the scope is Italian made and is a Mk II rather than a Mk I?

Information

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[Surpmil]

Why do you think the scope is Italian made and is a Mk II rather than a Mk I?

Because only the very earliest UK made MkI scopes had that degree of precision in the casting and machining of the "turret block" (the bronze or brass block which forms the base for the drums and graticule assembly) Many, especially the William Watson production, are poorly and roughly shaped.

Also the tubes are not thick enough to completely machine off the original markings and still retain enough material to have adequate strength.

And because no UK make MkI or MkII scopes had that type of knurling on the ocular lense retaining ring. Most of those I have seen in photos or "in the flesh" had a pretty perfunctory knurl and not much of that.

The ring which forms the mounting for the erector cell locking segment and cover plate is also different from UK production.

As I mentioned earlier, that lens retaining ring is for all intents and purposes identical to the REL pattern which makes me wonder if the Italian made scopes used lenses taken from REL No.42 scopes, which MAY have been available as surplus in the early 1950s.

Or of course REL No42s may have just been used as a source of spare parts for repairs over the period of time the No.32 was in Italian service.

The tubes of the No42 scope were quite a bit thicker than the No32s, particularly the UK made examples. So, perhaps those tubes (and optics?) were used as well? Of course the time and trouble in stripping those down and cleaning the optics for reuse etc. would probably exceed the cost of just making new tubes, but who knows? There are cheap ways to do these things and labour must have been pretty cheap in Italy in the late 40s and early 50s?

Considering the large firearms industry in Italy and the high quality of the arms they produced, it does seem a bit odd to be using Lee Enfields, but of course they were more or less a free gift from countries like Canada and the domestic industry could then concentrate on the export market which would produce foreign exchange income.

[Giove]

Sorry for the delay.

Thank you all for the precious information.

I don't know if the Italian made scopes used lenses taken from REL No. 42 scopes. I know the lenses on Italian scopes are incompatible with the British one. I think that Italian lenses were used: the "Filotecnica-Salmoiraghi" and the "San Giorgio" supplied the Army with binoculars in the same period.

Yes, the labour was cheap in the late '40 and early '50s.

I'll see, soon, to put pictures of the other "Italian snipers" and the "Italianized TP".

[Giove]

This is my first (in order of purchase) Savage.

The stamp on the butt-stock is: Star/FAT/52.

On the Nock's form: the Flaming bomb and the Italian mark Star/61.

On the Transit chest: FAT/1952.


[FAT isn't "fat-man", but "Fabbrica Armi Terni" (Terni Arms Factory").

[Surpmil]

Sorry for the delay.

Thank you all for the precious information.

I don't know if the Italian made scopes used lenses taken from REL No. 42 scopes. I know the lenses on Italian scopes are incompatible with the British one. I think that Italian lenses were used: the "Filotecnica-Salmoiraghi" and the "San Giorgio" supplied the Army with binoculars in the same period.

Yes, the labour was cheap in the late '40 and early '50s.

I'll see, soon, to put pictures of the other "Italian snipers" and the "Italianized TP".

Neither do I! It is just a guess, a hypothesis.

Surpmil, I don't know. I think that to Italy, in the post WW2 period, armament limits had been imposed.

Quite possibly, but what kind do you mean; limits on production?

[Giove]

I apologize if I answer only now.

After the end of WW II, for Great Britain, Italy had to be a small power on whose military contribution G. B. could maintain, even in indirect form, some control.

In the immediate post war period, the U.S.A. took no interest in Italian military problems of which only G.B. was interested, at this point.

According to General Browning, the Italian military industry should have been dismantled, and the equipment for Italian Army should be provided by G.B. with the considerable amount of surplus materials it could have had in the post war period.

It was established that for 5 years, the Italian Army would have a maximum of 265,000 men, and the production of war materials would be limited to the strict minimum to fill the gap left by the supplies of Allies materials.

The Italian "Army of Transition", that is the Army from the armistice to the peace treaty, would have received the equipment and the war materials from three supply channels:

1 - from Italian national resources;
2 - from the surpluses put on sale by the Allied liquidation organizationa;
3 - from imports decided by the Italian Government.

Of all these sources, only the Allied surplus materials deposits, were able to contribute to the Italian Army reorganization. The Allied authorities also realized that most of the U.S.A Army stocks had already been taken out of Italy; it was, therefore, decided (Decembre 1945) to standardize the armament for the "Army of Transition" to the British Army. General Browning suggested that only British weapons be distributed to the Italian Army units and that the "Carabinieri" units would have been armed with Italian weapons.

All this lasted until the Summer/Fall of 1947.

By the end of 1947, the British position was supplanted by the U.S.A., also due to the severe economic crisis that Great Britain met in the 1947 Winter.

The U.S.A. aid was realized with a weapons supplu in the 1948 Spring.

The Treaty of Peace established a force of 185,000 men for the Italian Army. The article 53 prevented Italy from manufacturing or possessing war material in excess of the needs of the Armed Forces allowed; thus macking difficult to set aside the necessary stocks. However, Italy also lacked the necessary economic resources to buy stocks.

However, due to the persistent economic constraints, for the whole year 1949, extensive use of all materials provided by the Allied in previous years and not yet been exploited, was made.

In 1949 Italy joined the NATO, and so the M1 Garand were supplied. The Lee-Enfield passed to the Navy. Italy, also, received a number of M1 Garand sniper rifles.

A number of Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk I (T) were used by the Italian Army (then Royal Army) in the last stages of the "Liberation war", in 1944 - 1945 years.

It seems that the Lee-Enfield sniper rifle has never been officially adopted by the Italian Army, but used to acquire the necessary capabilities awaiting the arrival of official sniper rifles.

The first sniper rifle officially adopted, in post W.W. II period, was the M1 Garand in 30-06 caliber. The Italian Army initially received some M1C version to, then, move on the M1D model from the second half of the '50s.