Another Lee Enfield Sniper

[Giove]

IMO you have an Italian produced MkII scope

Why do you think the scope is Italian made and is a Mk II rather than a Mk I?

[Roger Payne]

I think it has been suggested that the scope is a Mk2 because the range drum is as per the Mk2. The Mk1 range scale lacks the intermediate 50 yd graduations (although it could be a Mk1 with a Mk2 range drum I suppose!). The actual adjustment graduations would depend on whether the scope has a Mk1 or Mk2 range clicker plate.

[Surpmil]

Why do you think the scope is Italian made and is a Mk II rather than a Mk I?

Because only the very earliest UK made MkI scopes had that degree of precision in the casting and machining of the "turret block" (the bronze or brass block which forms the base for the drums and graticule assembly) Many, especially the William Watson production, are poorly and roughly shaped.

Also the tubes are not thick enough to completely machine off the original markings and still retain enough material to have adequate strength.

And because no UK make MkI or MkII scopes had that type of knurling on the ocular lense retaining ring. Most of those I have seen in photos or "in the flesh" had a pretty perfunctory knurl and not much of that.

The ring which forms the mounting for the erector cell locking segment and cover plate is also different from UK production.

As I mentioned earlier, that lens retaining ring is for all intents and purposes identical to the REL pattern which makes me wonder if the Italian made scopes used lenses taken from REL No.42 scopes, which MAY have been available as surplus in the early 1950s.

Or of course REL No42s may have just been used as a source of spare parts for repairs over the period of time the No.32 was in Italian service.

The tubes of the No42 scope were quite a bit thicker than the No32s, particularly the UK made examples. So, perhaps those tubes (and optics?) were used as well? Of course the time and trouble in stripping those down and cleaning the optics for reuse etc. would probably exceed the cost of just making new tubes, but who knows? There are cheap ways to do these things and labour must have been pretty cheap in Italy in the late 40s and early 50s?

Considering the large firearms industry in Italy and the high quality of the arms they produced, it does seem a bit odd to be using Lee Enfields, but of course they were more or less a free gift from countries like Canada and the domestic industry could then concentrate on the export market which would produce foreign exchange income.

[Giove]

Sorry for the delay.

Thank you all for the precious information.

I don't know if the Italian made scopes used lenses taken from REL No. 42 scopes. I know the lenses on Italian scopes are incompatible with the British one. I think that Italian lenses were used: the "Filotecnica-Salmoiraghi" and the "San Giorgio" supplied the Army with binoculars in the same period.

Yes, the labour was cheap in the late '40 and early '50s.

I'll see, soon, to put pictures of the other "Italian snipers" and the "Italianized TP".

[Giove]

This is my first (in order of purchase) Savage.

The stamp on the butt-stock is: Star/FAT/52.

On the Nock's form: the Flaming bomb and the Italian mark Star/61.

On the Transit chest: FAT/1952.


[FAT isn't "fat-man", but "Fabbrica Armi Terni" (Terni Arms Factory").

[Roger Payne]

Impressive piece of kit Giancarlo. Everything looks in pristine condition, even the transit chest. Has it all been sympathetically refurbished?

[Giove]

Yes Roger, FAT refurbished everything and then stored.

[Surpmil]

I suppose the only logical explanation of why the Italians decided to replicate the MkII rather than Mk3 scope would be that either they simply weren't aware of its existence, or they decided to standardize on the MkII since they perhaps had so many ex-UK (& Canada?) examples, either MkI, MkII or both? The MkI's could be upgraded to MkII quite easily, but that is also just a hypothesis based on logic. And logic does occasionally play a part in decisions of this kind!

AFAWK, the Mk3 so no service in WWII, or very little and AFAWK, the UK was getting rid of MkI and perhaps MkII scopes postwar, not Mk3s. Of course that policy must have changed at some point as thousands seem to have got onto the market in as-new, matching condition.

Probably a case of one bureaucratic hand not knowing what the other was doing. Those new-in-the-crates rifles would certainly have come in handy in the 60s, 70s and 80s from what Peter has told us about the vast amounts of work required to keep the rifles then on hand serviceable.

[Giove]

Surpmil, I don't know. I think that to Italy, in the post WW2 period, armament limits had been imposed.

[Surpmil]

Sorry for the delay.

Thank you all for the precious information.

I don't know if the Italian made scopes used lenses taken from REL No. 42 scopes. I know the lenses on Italian scopes are incompatible with the British one. I think that Italian lenses were used: the "Filotecnica-Salmoiraghi" and the "San Giorgio" supplied the Army with binoculars in the same period.

Yes, the labour was cheap in the late '40 and early '50s.

I'll see, soon, to put pictures of the other "Italian snipers" and the "Italianized TP".

Neither do I! It is just a guess, a hypothesis.

Surpmil, I don't know. I think that to Italy, in the post WW2 period, armament limits had been imposed.

Quite possibly, but what kind do you mean; limits on production?