1941 Savage No. 4 Mk 1 Sniper rifle?

[Bigwagon]

I'd like some opinions and info on this rifle I took a bit of a gamble on at a recent gun show. Hopefully I didn't pay 3x what it's worth! From my basic research it appears to have many correct features and markings of a No.4 T, at least for a Savage. The photos show most of the details, but a few other points to mention.

SNs match on bolt and magazine
5-groove barrel with excellent bore
The forehand was cut off in shorter style with no upper hand guard but a milled band refit
Buttstock has aluminum buttplate and holes where a cheekrest was mounted
Micrometer rear sight was butchered into a V-notch (what buffoon thought that was a good idea??)

I'm most curious about whether this is a legit No. 4 sniper and about the TR and FTR markings. I would like to refit a full fore end and possibly a retro scope and mount as I probably can't afford originals.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Roger Payne]

You can stop worrying, it's real! Well, at least, IMHO it is. As you say, an early Savage rifle, converted to T specs, & having been FTR'ed & wearing a few replacement parts, but a genuine conversion all the same. The FTRing is just a part of its service history. If you need a replacement cursor for your rear sight pm me. I have a plastic ice cream tub full of them somewhere in the garage.......

[Brian Dick]

It's certainly legit and well worth restoring properly.

[Surpmil]

Interesting that the "TR" and "F.T.R" marks appear to have been struck over the finish that presumably went on at the time of the 1945 or later (based on barrel date) FTR.

The "TR" is not the usual font seen on later rifles, so perhaps one of the not-uncommon retroactive stampings done to early conversions to make them conform to the later markings SOP.

If both stampings are over and through the FTR refinish, then it seems quite likely they were both done at the same time: as the last steps in the FTR. That is interesting as I don't think we've seen that here before.

Just about everything but the bolt, and probably the backsight, appears to have been replaced, probably during the FTR, but Peter has told us in the past that common and standard parts were not kept with a particular rifle through FTR.

[Brian Dick]

Savage No.4's selected for sniper conversion weren't marked TR as original so it had to be done during FTR. The TR stamp was a selection mark that came into being during production for standard BSA service rifles that shot above average during the range testing. Those rifles so marked were then shipped to Holland and Holland for conversion to No.4T. Very early examples from BSA, Savage, Fazakerley and Maltby up until 1943 seldom have those markings present. At some point in 1943, markings became standardized along with BSA becoming the only supplier of rifles for conversion.

[Bigwagon]

Thanks for the responses. Would I be correct in assuming that even though this rifle is scope-less, it was probably not one of the rifles partially converted without a scope, since it wouldn't have gone through FTR unless it had been issued and used? I will take it to the range tomorrow to see how it performs before how I decide how to proceed. I'd like to pick up a mount at least to put some kind of scope on it along with fixing up the fore-end.

[Roger Payne]

Having been made & converted relatively early it is unlikely that it would have been left scopeless. It would probably have had a Mk1 scope, or just possibly an early Mk2 on it.

I would agree absolutely with Surpmil & Brian. The TR & FTR were applied after the black paint & were probably applied, at least in the case of the TR, to bring it up to the accepted 'standard'. The TR & FTR are in fonts that I have seen on a number of early conversions (both Trials rifles & early run of production rifles), that have been through the FTR process perhaps late in WW2 or immediately afterwards, before the standard pantographed FTR markings became the norm.

P.S. I was just looking at smleaddict's post about his Maltby 4T - if you look at the FTR & TR stamps on the butt socket of his rifle I reckon they're pretty similar to those on the Savage. They might even be the same font, although I'd hesitate to go that far as the markings on the Maltby are not very well applied, with parts of most of the letters missing. Note that both of these rifles are (presumably) early conversions of early rifles that got early FTR's!

[Bigwagon]

Took it to the range today to sight in and function check. Function was fine but sighting in at 50 yards with the irons and PPU ammo took some time. It was shooting way to the left and to get it centered up I had to move the front blade almost all the way to the left side of the dovetail block. With the butchered rear sight aperture it was difficult to get good vertical alignment and the grouping showed that. Horizontal dispersion looks like it will be capable of 1-2 MOA (the six shots along the left were adjusting elevation up; the 5 shots farthest to the right in the bull were my last. I made another front sight adjustment but was out of ammo). Since the sight is already ruined I might drill and tap it for a removable aperture and see if that helps. Bedding with the cutoff stock may be part of the problem too.

[Strangely Brown]

Answered my own question by re reading the original post!

[Roger Payne]

Bigwagon, if you want a replacement cursor for the knackered one on your existing rear sight, I'll give you one. Just drop me a pm. It does mean though, that you'll have to take the sight apart to remove the old one & put on the new. There are plenty of people on this forum who can talk you through that, if you need any advice. It's not really complicated, just a bit fiddley.