Stumper of an Arisaka Bayonet

[Aragorn243]

Found an Arisaka bayonet at a flea market today. It is a bit unusual and I can't make heads or tails of it.

I have some photos of it next to a standard training bayonet. As you can see, this is short. The blade is 13 inches instead of the normal 15 inches. It has not been shortened. The fuller ends proportionally to the end of the blade. The blade is sharpened part way as is normal for regular Type 30 bayonets. There are no markings on the blade that I can see. The metal has black paint on it. The top center of the hilt is well marked with what appears to be a circle, a series mark, a second series mark, a three digit number and an unusual three lobed mark. The quillion is also of an unusual shape. I've check Japanese, Chinese and Korean variations with no luck. It does have the "look" of a trainer aside from the blade being sharpened, short and heavily marked although not in the normal location. The blade is slightly narrower than the training blade but quite a bit thicker. The scabbard is welded at the top holding the loop and the bottom looks welded also. This could be a shortened scabbard. It does fit a Type 99 rifle although the muzzle ring seems looser than normal.

It is too long to be a paratrooper bayonet. Suggested possibility by another individual is that is was made for a machine gun. I've found little information on that but it appears they took the standard Type 30 bayonet also.

Any help would be appreciated.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Aragorn243]

My research seems to be leading me toward a Chinese made bayonet although nothing firm has come up and nothing with the length of the blade. There are two markings that resemble Chinese Arsenal markings, Tietsin and Shanghai and the quillion is shaped like those produced at Mukden. There is a possible marking on the blade which is not clear at all which also resembles a Chinese mark.

[browningautorifle]

The scabbard appears to have been pieced together. That doesn't explain the bayonet though...neat find.

[Aragorn243]

I know a guy that is a very serious collector of Japanese items. He identified this as a Chinese manufactured bayonet made for captured T38 and T99 rifles. Beyond that, there is not a lot of information on them. The markings are suspected to be from the Tientsin Arsenal which would indicate post WWII manufacture as I expect it was occupied by Japan during the war. He said however that no one knows when or where exactly they were made and could have been made during the war. He also offered to buy it so I also consider it a "neat find". Not selling it. He said these came into the US when there was an import of Chinese rifles which included captured Arisakas. Only paid $40 for it so this became the third good bayonet this spring/summer I've gotten a good deal on.

[Aragorn243]

Examined this further this afternoon and determined it is not black paint but petrified cosmoline or tar of some sort so I'm cleaning that off. No pitting anywhere, just some light surface rust which I'm taking care of also. This bayonet would be considered crude compared to a Japanese one. Heavy grinding marks all over it. I did find a possible light strike mark on the blade but inconclusive at best. Very remotely looks like a Chinese arsenal mark. It also appears heavier than a Japanese one, possibly because they didn't polish it to any great extent.

[jangle]

I was browsing through some older threads this snowy cold morning and found this thread that is over a year old that I somehow missed the first time through. I wanted to comment on some mis-information that if not corrected, just keeps being repeated as fact. The OP's original research is very accurate in where these bayonets were made, but I just wanted to expand on it a little if I could.

These bayonets were not made for captured T-38 or T-99 rifles, nor were they imported in with the batch of rifles from China in the late '80's - early '90's. I suspect that the OP's "serious collector friend" might have known what this bayonet was and since he offered to buy it, was just trying to take advantage of the OP's lack of available knowledge of this unknown bayonet.

These bayonets were made in the Tientsin area in China under Japanese control. They were made for the Type-19 Carbine in 6.5mm and the "collector defined" North China T-30 Copy in 8mm mauser. There were 3-4 smaller factories in this area that made these bayonets along with the Tientsin Arsenal, but the Tientsin Arsenal was the final inspector for them. There are small differences in each factories examples such as grip and pommel shape, serialized vs. unserialized and scabbard configurations. The muzzle ring inside diameter of the bayonets will range from 14mm - 17mm. The 6.5mm barrel of the T-19 Carbine measures 14mm and the 8mm T30 copy measures 16mm. The known serial number range of the OP's bayonet is 241-1174 and is considered a rare bayonet! This information has been known for close to 15 years.

Aragorn243.... you have a great bayonet there with the proper scabbard!

Hope this has been helpful!

[Aragorn243]

Thank you very much, I never would have guessed that. So it is definitely WWII but who used it is somewhat unknown although it appears it would be either Japanese Troops or Chinese Troops under the control of Japan (Manchukuo).

I did a search to see what exactly a Type 19 was and the rifle has the same markings on it as the bayonet.

So would these have been used against the Chinese communists and the Soviets at the end of the war?

A little over 1000 produced? Seems low with the number of rifles guesstimated at 38,000.

[jangle]

After the war in China really started to escalate in 1937, there were several factions of Chinese troops who were loyal to the Japanese in the areas that were controlled by the Japanese. The captured weapons were only going so far to arm these puppet troops, so the Japanese went to the Arsenals that were in their territory and started production of various types of weapons to outfit these loyal troops, mostly the T-30 copy in 8mm and T-19 carbines. Production of these two types of Carbines combined is believed to be around 70K.

So to answer your question, these rifles and bayonets would have been used against the Chinese communists forces and I assume possibly the Soviets in the North.

On the low production number of your bayonet, remember there were I believe at least 4 different factories producing these bayonets with their own serial number blocks to fill. Some bayo's have no serial and some have higher serial numbers. But taken into account where all of these rifles and bayonets were used, in China, makes sense why they are so scarce here today.

A fantastic reference book "The type 38 Arisaka" written by Francis C. Allan goes into great detail on this part of Japan's war against China.