an original krag finally?

[jon_norstog]

I think thaT is a pretty damn good Krag. Many Krags were arsenal refurbished, for instance whe they came back from Cuba or the Philippines. Also there were in-field modifications, for instance the "engineers" modification of the carbine with sling rings. The 1907 sling is the one to have for military shooting events, and is worth money by itself.

That one has the 1901 sight, which is the best one for target shooting. It is in great shape overall and probably did not see any service in tropical climates. I wonder how it ended up in France.

Those rifles can be very accurate and with a little practice you should be able to astound the flaneurs at your rifle range by shooting the heart out of any target that is put up.

jn

[donki1967]

I wonder how it ended up in France

I don't have the slightest idea ... he may have arrived in europe recently, in which case he must have a CIP proof mark, I'll find out.

[LeadSnowstorm]

Even in the US on Gunbroker or the like, a $1200 asking price would not be that much out of line, frankly. It might not move as quickly as a rifle priced at $850-1000. But if it caught the eye of the right collector or (assuming the condition of the bore is comparable to the rest) shooter, it might.

As a point of reference, the latest price for Krags sold out of the stores of the Civilian Marksmanship Program is $1250.

IMHO unless the bore is just a sewer pipe or there’s some unpictured damage, I don’t think that price should greatly deter you.

[donki1967]

Hello again,

What matching parts must a KRAG have?if there must be any factory.
Thanks

[butlersrangers]

'Donki' - The Krag you are considering is a U.S. Magazine Rifle Model 1898 (Krag-Jorgesen).

It has the model 1901 rear-sight, which was the preferred sight for Krags remaining in U.S. Army service after 1905.
(It is likely that a lot of Krags that went to the State National Guard Units had the model 1902 rear-sight).

All the parts on this Krag are Model 1898 parts.
Even though the manufacture of 'head-less cocking-piece' was discontinued in 1900, the part was still acceptable and could be used during rebuilding of Krags.

U.S. Krag parts were not serial numbered or matched to the serial number of the Rifle's Receiver.
(Exception was some early model 1892 rifles, made in 1894, that had some parts numbered to the gun).

Springfield Armory was the sole manufacturer of parts and they were intended to be interchangeable, without hand-fitting.
(We learned this from the French)!

You are considering a very nice Krag. It may have even gotten to France with U.S. Engineers (???). It's probably impossible to know for sure, without documentation.

Attached photo of U.S. 12th Engineers in London during a 1917 parade.

Attachment 111326

[donki1967]

butlersrangers,
Thank you very much for these last details, I will book this 1898 as soon as possible; if I have the chance to obtain it I will present it in photos on this forum.
Thanks for your help

Regards

[butlersrangers]

FWIW - Some information regarding Arms of 12th U.S. Engineers in 1917-1918:

The 12th Engineers were mobilized at St. Louis, Missouri, in June, 1917. Equipment was issued in July 1917:

"The arms and equipment issued were the old type, used in the Spanish American war, including the Krag-Jorgensen rifle". (From "History of the Twelfth Engineers, U.S. Army", by Colonel John A. Laird, pp. 7-8).

The 12th Engineers landed at Liverpool, England on August 12, 1917. They traveled by Rail and de-trained in London, on August 15, 1917. The 12th, 13th, 14th and 17th Engineer Regiments, U.S. Army, paraded in London and received a large Public Reception. (The picture, I posted, of Engineers with Krag rifles in London, was taken during this event).

The 12th landed at Boulogne on August 18, 1917. During, October, 1917, they were under British overall-command on the Somme. The 12th provided Railway and narrow gauge 'light rail' supply and support for British operations at Cambrai. They were 'nick-named' "The 12th American Royal Engineers".

In November, 1917, the Germans launched a counter-offensive against General Byng's British & Canadian forces at Cambrai. The 11th Engineers and Canadian Engineers were overrun by a rapid German advance. The 11th was the first American unit to fight in France. Being involved in transpot and evacuation of supplies, the 11th was not well prepared for fighting and had to resort to picking-up discarded British and German rifles.

The 12th Engineers were involved in transporting and destroying abandoned material, as well as, restoring Rail Lines, during a major withdrawal. A massive German Offensive, in March, 1918, forced the British forces from Cambrai and the Somme.

The 12th was involved in building defensive positions around Terramesnil and Woirel to stabilize a new British defensive position.

Owing to the likelihood the 12th Engineer regiment would be used as infantry, to strengthen the British Lines, efforts were devoted to drill, bayonet exercises, and target practice. The 12th Engineers experienced a couple of rifle exchanges:

"The Springfield rifles, which had been issued when the old Krag-Jorgensens were taken up after the Battle of Cambrai, were now exchanged for the standard British Lee-Enfield rifle in order to obviate any difficulty in ammunition supply should the regiment be ordered into the British front line". (Page 115).

[donki1967]

thank you for this beautiful lesson in history ... we will never forget the help of the brave US soldiers...I managed to buy this beautiful 1898, and it will join its US brothers in my safe!
regards

[ssgross]

Hopefully it gets a chance to go to the range too! Now that I'm finally a proud owner of a complete 1898 krag myself this year (after a long wait finding the right one), I can assure you it is very much a pleasure to see and feel it perform first hand.

[butlersrangers]

FWIW:

There were likely around 1,500 Krag rifles that went to France with the 12th Engineers, in 1917.
Similar numbers of Krags probably accompanied the other U.S. Engineer regiments, (like the 11th, 13th, 14th, and 17th).

These Engineer (railway) troops were deployed early in the U.S. WW-1 involvement. Their primary role was to take on military railway construction, repair rail lines, and operate & organize the logistics of moving war material, equipment, and soldiers to the front lines by rail, or extract equipment during retreat.

Eventually, these Engineer regiments had their Krags replaced with more modern arms, although fighting as Infantry was not an Engineer's primary role.

The 12th Engineer regiment exchanged their Krag rifles, for Springfield rifles, after the fighting at Cambrai, in late 1917. (In April, 1918, the Springfield rifles were replaced with Lee-Enfield rifles, due to serving with British forces).
Later in 1918, the 12th Engineers would be under U.S. command.

Prior to leaving France, the 12th Engineers were photographed in April, 1919, at the Port of Bassens carrying Springfields.
Later in April, at New York, and in May, 1919, at St. Louis, Missouri, they were armed with 1903 Springfield rifles.

This all brings up the question: What happened to the thousands of Krag rifles brought to France by U.S. Engineer troops in 1917?

Were they shipped back to the U.S. for recruit training?
Were they simply stored, as reserve equipment, in Europe?
Did some of these Krags get left in France and become rare collector items?

If old guns could only talk!

Donki - Congratulations on your Krag purchase. Please post pictures when it arrives!