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Jim Tarleton Case Head Exits Rifle 05-13-2009, 12:30 AM
Guest I had exactly the same... 05-13-2009, 01:44 AM
MEHavey Are you saying the action... 05-13-2009, 11:20 AM
Jim Tarleton A fired primer is flush with... 05-13-2009, 12:47 PM
joem I didn't see you reload data.... 05-13-2009, 01:32 PM
Jim Tarleton The Load 05-13-2009, 08:16 PM
joem I didn't see you reload data.... 05-13-2009, 01:42 PM
Jim Tarleton 1902 05-13-2009, 02:02 PM
slamfire1 After reading your... 05-13-2009, 02:30 PM
MEHavey 1) But did you fire the... 05-13-2009, 06:03 PM
Jim Tarleton I am at work, I will get it... 05-13-2009, 01:51 PM
Jim Tarleton I didn't answer all your... 05-13-2009, 07:15 PM
Jim Tarleton Disassembly shows no sign of... 05-13-2009, 09:26 PM
MEHavey The hammer moved it back into... 05-13-2009, 09:42 PM
Jim Tarleton Springs and Hornets 05-13-2009, 10:42 PM
Parashooter Well, your data and technique... 05-13-2009, 10:12 PM
MEHavey It's bouncing. I'll bet... 05-13-2009, 10:16 PM
Kirk Jim: The only way for a... 05-13-2009, 10:50 PM
Jim Tarleton Kirk and Parashooter, ... 05-13-2009, 11:04 PM
MEHavey :beerchug:Roger all.... 05-13-2009, 11:16 PM
slamfire1 I like the theory that the... 05-14-2009, 09:30 AM
Jim Tarleton I agree.:super: Jim:cool: 05-14-2009, 12:51 PM
MEHavey Carbine Williams lives:super:... 05-14-2009, 10:21 AM
Jim Tarleton The Case Head 05-17-2009, 09:57 PM
Jim Tarleton Excuse me, I meant 4227. ... 05-17-2009, 09:58 PM
Parashooter There is a solution to... 05-18-2009, 12:51 AM
Jim Tarleton Interesting. I had not... 05-18-2009, 11:35 AM
Parashooter I've noticed that many... 05-18-2009, 12:47 PM
Jim Tarleton Was was that chamber cast... 05-18-2009, 02:55 PM
Parashooter Cerrosafe. 05-18-2009, 03:21 PM
slamfire1 Lubricated cartridges case... 05-18-2009, 07:03 PM
slamfire1 The lubricated cartridges... 05-18-2009, 07:12 PM
MEHavey Question: Why would not... 05-18-2009, 10:32 PM
Parashooter It does. However, neck-sizing... 05-19-2009, 12:11 AM
MEHavey Right. (And since I'm a... 05-19-2009, 07:13 PM
jamie5070 Has anyone heard of a rolling... 05-19-2009, 07:20 PM
Kirk I've not heard of it... 05-19-2009, 10:26 PM
Jim Tarleton DeHass's book is excellent,... 05-20-2009, 01:12 PM
ireload2 This is an interesting... 06-05-2009, 07:40 PM
slamfire1 I absolutely believe that a... 06-05-2009, 08:44 PM
Jim Tarleton Interestinng 06-07-2009, 09:36 AM
n64atlas From looking at an exploded... 06-06-2009, 12:32 PM
ireload2 The RRB is a self locking... 06-06-2009, 02:59 PM
MEHavey Jim, I believe the "greased... 06-07-2009, 10:44 AM
Jim Tarleton MEH, I do read it the same... 06-07-2009, 11:20 AM
Kirk Jim: Before I reload a... 06-07-2009, 11:48 AM
Parashooter Jim, I see you're still... 06-07-2009, 11:52 AM
slamfire1 Dick Culver merely... 06-07-2009, 04:49 PM
MEHavey Slamfire: "Greased"... 06-07-2009, 08:23 PM
slamfire1 MEHavey: I know the theory... 06-08-2009, 02:43 PM
Jim Tarleton Both armories went to DHT or... 06-08-2009, 03:17 PM
slamfire1 I do have rationale to... 06-09-2009, 04:38 PM
MEHavey See: The Hunter's Guide to... 06-08-2009, 04:11 PM
ireload2 >>>I have a problem seeing... 06-09-2009, 12:56 AM
Jim Tarleton Case Friction 06-09-2009, 01:59 PM
ireload2 >>>You might find Parker... 06-09-2009, 09:09 PM
Jim Tarleton I agree wholeheartedly. Jim 06-11-2009, 10:46 PM
  1. #1
    Advisory Panel Parashooter's Avatar
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    Cerrosafe.
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    Warning: This is a relatively older thread
    This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

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    Lubricated cartridges case myth started with “Hatcher's Notebook” and his section on the 1921 Tin Can ammo. The tin on the bullet jacket cold welded the bullet to the case neck. This created a bore obstruction. A number of rifles were ruined at the National Matches. The Ordnance Department who supplied the ammo, decided to shift the blame to the shooters by blaming an operational practice of the shooters.

    They found a unique practice at the time, shooter’s were greasing their bullets to reduce copper fouling. Ordnance claimed that was the reason the rifles blew up. They concocted reasonable sounding theories (all ignoring the bore obstructions that cold welding created) and ran rigged pressure tests to prove their case. Greased bullets were banned for more than 50 years at the National Matches until the original reason was forgotten.

    I think the millions of Moly Lubed bullets fired down range have somehow proved the Ordnance theories and tests as bogus. Being a loyal Ordnance Officer, Hatcher reported the theories and failure analysis uncritically. Somehow people reading his book did not see the inconsistencies, and confused greased bullets with case lubrication. This confusion was codified, repeated as fact, time and time again by Gunwriters of the 1970’s and has become a “cultural memory” in the reloading community.

    No action is designed assuming that the case provides any friction or carries any load. Take a look at the calculations on Lija’s page and at the article bolt lug strength. Lilja Precision Rifle Barrels - Articles: A Look at Bolt Lug Strength.


    I highly recommend visiting the above referenced site and seeing a dynamic analysis of chamber finish/case fricition. Rifle Chamber Finish & Friction Effects on Bolt Load and Case Head Thinning Calculations done with LS-DYNA What I want to point out is that as case friction is reduced, case stretch is reduced. If this is true, it may mean that that cases are less likely to rupture, either through a brass flaw, or through repeated firing, if the cases are lubricated.

  3. #3
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    The lubricated cartridges case myth started with “Hatcher's Notebook” and his section on the 1921 Tin Can ammo. The tin on the bullet jacket cold welded the bullet to the case neck. This created a bore obstruction. A number of rifles were ruined at the National Matches. The Ordnance Department who supplied the ammo, decided to shift the blame to the shooters by blaming an operational practice of the shooters.

    Shooter’s were greasing their bullets to reduce copper fouling. Ordnance claimed that was the reason the rifles blew up. They concocted reasonable sounding theories (all ignoring the bore obstructions that cold welding created) and ran rigged pressure tests to prove their case. Greased bullets were banned for more than 50 years at the National Matches until the original reason was forgotten.

    I think the millions of Moly Lubed bullets fired down range have somehow proved the Ordnance theories and tests as bogus. Being a loyal Ordnance Officer, Hatcher reported the theories and failure analysis uncritically. Somehow people reading his book did not see the inconsistencies, and confused greased bullets with case lubrication. This confusion was codified, repeated as fact, time and time again by Gunwriters of the 1970’s and has become a “cultural memory” in the reloading community.

    No action is designed assuming that the case provides any friction or carries any load. Take a look at the calculations on Lija’s page and at the article bolt lug strength. Lilja Precision Rifle Barrels - Articles: A Look at Bolt Lug Strength.


    I highly recommend visiting the above referenced site and seeing a dynamic analysis of chamber finish/case fricition. [url="http://www.varmintal.com/a243z.htm"]Rifle Chamber Finish & Friction Effects on Bolt Load and Case Head Thinning Calculations done with LS-DYNA

    What I want to point out is that as case friction is reduced, case stretch is reduced. If this is true, it may mean that that cases are less likely to rupture, either through a brass flaw, or through repeated firing, if the cases are lubricated.

    Notes: Careful application of thin lubricant coatings should not be confused with the sort of heavy lubrication that can prevent a case neck from expanding and releasing the bullet cleanly - a condition that can produce destructive pressure. Also, oiled cases will collect airborne grit and must be protected from it. An alternative useful in gritty environments is lubrication with a coat of dry wax
    .

    I used "stick wax" to coat almost 1000 CAVIM 308 cases. It was a bad idea as "stick wax" is thick and just impossible to wipe off. So I shot the stuff in a FAL The stick wax was on thick and greasey . As I was able to dial down the gas port and have the rifle still function, I know the wax coating reduced breech friction. I did not have any pressure problems. I think as the case neck opens up, any grease or what not is squeezed out to the breech end. The case neck expands first, then the thicker parts of the case after that.

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