Receiver Scratch or Crack

[liljughead34]

Hey Guys
Do you think this mark on this M1 Carbine is a scratch or crack? The seller says he inspected it after I pointed it out and said it was a scratch. What are your thoughts?

Attachment 117843

Information

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[Wthenley]

Hard to be sure from a photo. I would have to reason out that if a receiver had a "crack" that large it would be damaged elsewhere as well. I do not think a crack would happen in a straight line as that line appears to be showing. I would suspect it to be a mill mark or just a wear mark from the underside of the charging handle/op rod or bolt.

[painter777]

Fellow member tenOCee pointed out this area cracking on Commercial carbines.
With that said, this is the thinnest area on a Receiver.
Using advice given to him,

Tip the receiver on it's left upper corner and poured some oil into the bottom of that slide cut overnight.
See if the oil seeps thru the area your questioning.

Here's a link to the posts by tenOCee and his pictures. Starts about 1/2 way down the page:
Cracked Bolts, Slides and Receivers - The Carbine Collector's Club - Page 1

Can you see any Damage near the Left locking lug the Bolt locks in to ?
Look for any signs of the Receiver Bulging.
If Cracked it could have been from a incident or just from metal fatigue.

When I look at it magnified it appears cracked. But any Oil seepage from underneath to the top side would tell the tale.

[painter777]

I should add that Jim (BAR) had a early WRA he had to retire early because of metal fatigue splitting. And IIRC he had had no mishap that caused it.

@liljughead, I forgot to Welcome you to Milsurps
You'll find a Good bunch here.
We consider no questions... Silly questions.
Can you post a few pictures showing the Left locking shoulder inside the receiver and maybe one with the Bolt in it slid forward ?

[MGMike]

If it's a crack, you'll see it also on the rear vertical surface of the receiver cut-out where the right-hand bolt lug locks into it (which is where the crack would have begun).

If you're still in doubt, slosh some gasoline over the scratch/crack and watch it evaporate. If it's a crack, it will stay wet as the top surface dries and gasoline continues to seep out of the crack. If it's just a scratch, it will all dry about the same time.

M

[liljughead34]

Thanks for the replies guys. This gun is for sale online so I don't have access to do the oil/ gas test. All I have to go off of is the pictures and his reply back to me that he took it apart and that it was a scratch and not a crack. From the picture I was leaning towards a scratch and from the pictures I've seen online of cracks on top of the rail are alot more obviously cracked. So I figured I'd see what some of you guys thought since I'm sure most of you have seen alot more carbines than I. I added another picture from his listing, doesn't really show much to help evaluate.


Attachment 117847

[browningautorifle]

I should add that Jim (BAR) had a early WRA he had to retire early because of metal fatigue splitting. And IIRC he had had no mishap that caused it.

That was correct, just normal firing and then it stopped functioning. The crack was unmistakable. It was on the left side top edge lengthwise.

[painter777]

Here is a picture shared by a member here of his later WRA with the inside Op Slide track groove on the Receiver cracked severely. He reported No Incident, it was just a Carbine he shot on a regular basis with Surplus Ammo from the CMP.
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=73812



Above this area where your arrows are pointing is thinner material.
Your picture shows a Winchester Type I Receiver. Known to have cracking problems where the notch is cut away for the detachable spring tube housing's Tab. The completely cut thru hole for the Op slide Stop pin contributes to this being a weak area.
This is part of the reason why these were phased out of production.

Seller has it Titled: "WW2 M1 Carbine Winchester-All Winchester Correct"
This under his Inspection/ Return Policy:
AS IS - No refund or exchange.
Description reads: "Early Winchester M1 carbine".

It's a early Winchester receiver with I believe the original barrel. The rest of the parts are from mid to later production WRA's, including the stock and hand guard. But IMO the Crossed Cannons and W.R.A. / G.H.D. Stamp is a reproduction, along with the "EW" Safety.

Be careful on this one, the Close ups sure look like Cracking in the areas you placed your arrows on. I have 4 WRA Type I Carbines, the closest being 621 after this one.
Winchester was known to have some pretty rough looking milling but again IMO that right receiver ledge has some major issues.

You must have sensed it to have questioned it. Good Job on your part
In the mean time there are a few really nice Winchesters in the mid 5 mil range currently being offered.

This one is in my Watch Box. If any Feedback is left by a buyer I'll report back on it.

Edit to Add: That Receiver is from early 43. Metal fatigue or some type of failure could be the cause.

[Flying10uk]

Unless it's been properly crack tested, in an approved manner, then personally I would assume that any mark seen like what is shown highlighted in post 1 is a crack.

One of the problems with cracks in metal is that they tend to travel, i.e. get bigger.

[floydthecat]

We know that receivers are very hard. Might be a scratch, but hard to imagine what caused it. It runs across the grain of the tool marks and appears to be a single pass from something, if it is a scratch.

Might be a tool-mark, but without being able to hands-on evaluate it, right-to-return might be the only way I would consider it.