What if the US had adoped the Enfield?

[Edward Horton]

What if the US had adoped the Enfield?

As an American who enjoys all of his Enfield Rifles the “What If” of this question comes 232 year after British tea was dumped in Boston Harbor and our disagreement with King George started.

While our German Mauser type 03 Springfield rifles might be considered technically superior to the British Enfield rifle, Mr. Kepler should also conceder the fact that if the French had not assisted us during our American Revolutionary War the Enfield rifle would have been handed to us for free anyway.

Also when considering all the facts and remembering that if my British/American ancestors had been slower runners I would have been an Australian.

When you conceder the fact the last name of Kepler is of German origin, and Kepler means “Hat Maker”in German, I wonder why a German hat maker thinks he know so much about a British and Commonwealth rifle.

Mr. Kepler, please excuse my humor but on my fathers side my Grandmother’s Maiden name was Vogel (German) which we wisely changed to Pennsylvania Dutch because we learned to hide our ancestral origins because of anti German sentiment during WWI.

WHY are you starting the war all over again after the Germans lost two World Wars to the Enfield rifle, you must be one hard headed German.

Mr. Strangely Brown, is this posting better or does it still need more improvement.
(yes your comments do matter)

[Strangely Brown]

Mr. Strangely Brown, is this posting better or does it still need more improvement.
(yes your comments do matter)

I'm almost impressed Ed.

Mr Kepler is a long time critic of the Lee Enfield Rifle; if their so awful it does make me wonder why he posts anything about them at all!

[Paul S.]

...the Enfield's days of being much of anyone's primary killing tool ended over a half-century ago.

The accuracy (pun intended) of your comment is doubtful at the least given the number of Russian conscripts who fell victim Afghans armed with antiquated, shot-out SMLEs much more recently than 50 years ago. Need I also remind that our troops in Afghanistan - Australian, American, British and Canadian still face a enemy who is almost as likely to carry an Enfield as a Kalishnikov? Mumbay comes to mind also with its police force armed with Enfield Rifles (army responders with I1a1s) responding to the recent terrorist attack.

Agreed, the Enfield isn't any nation's first line service rifle, but it does serve on, and on, and on, and on...

[Thunderbox]

So...your point being?

You made an incorrect statement; I was just offering the historical perspective.

And the US was already building and issuing a semi-automatic battle-rifle making the No. 4 obsolete rather than just obsolescent before it was even built...keeping it into the mid-1950's is even less justifiable.

The UK tested the Garand in the 1930s, but it was rejected because at that the rifle was not in a suitable state for manufacture & adoption by a country facing imminent war. Lets not forget US had another three or four years to develop & modify the rifle before it went into mass production, and still had to use bolt actions extensively. UK was not backward in considering semi-auto small arms - practically every single inter-war invention was tested. Small arms have a very insignificant strategic effect in war, so its not at all surprising that a proven system with no particular disadvantage from existing semi-autos should be ordered into mass production.

[kragluver]

One thing I have not seen mentioned yet in this thread -- The British Long Lee rifle finished essentially "2nd" to the Krag in the 1892 US magazine rifle trials. (Recall that the trials were really a competition for the magazine and receiver design.) The Lee was well liked by the board. However, according to the recent book The American Rifle, Mr. Lee had gotten cross-ways with someone at Ordnance (Mordicai I believe but I may be mis-remembering what I read) during the 1880s. The Chief of Ordnance decreed that there was no way in Hell the US Army would do business with Lee. Therefore, there was no way the Lee action would win. The Krag was more or less "developed" during the competition (a number of Krag variants were entered). The resulting Krag rifle is my favorite to take to the range, but the Enfield (as well as the Mauser) proved to be the better actions for a battle rifle.

That said, I don't think the Krag was as backward a design as some critics have stated. It had the unique feature that the magazine could be topped off with the bolt closed and a clip loading feature was adaptable (the Parkhurst device). The action may not have been as amenable to high pressure cartridges as the Mauser (neither was the Enfield), but the cartridge could have been evolved along the same lines that the .303 British was. If you put a 150-170 gr bullet in a .30-40 and load it with powder available by the early 20th century, one could have acheived ballistics very competitive with the bolt rifles of the day. I think what really killed the Krag was the cost of manufacture of the receiver.

[John Kepler]

When you conceder the fact the last name of Kepler is of German origin, and Kepler means “Hat Maker”in German, I wonder why a German hat maker thinks he know so much about a British and Commonwealth rifle.

Because my Mother's family are McCroskey's.....John McCroskey, my direct ancestor was one of the "Over-Mountain Men" that taught the British a rather pointed lesson in the value of individual marksmanship and accurate firearms on their "walk" up Kings Mountain in 1780, with a "follow-up briefing" 4 months later at Cowpens! Demonstrating the short-comings of British firearms has been sort-of a "family tradition" for over 300 years!

FWIW....my Dad's family got the hell out of "The Old Country" in 1685, settling in Burkes County PA....Mom's people came to Virginia via Ireland in 1690. My family (both sides!) have fought for this country in every conflict from the Revolution to Iraq and Afghanistan....a Hun last-name means NOTHING to me, Got sie dank! I'm an American...no "hyphens", no apologies!

As for Enfields. I've collected them as historical pieces for over 45 years. I enjoy them as a collectible and historical artifact...but as a trained rifleman, find that as a rifleman's tool, it is an insult. The L-E may be the very first modern "bullet-hose" as opposed to a rifleman's tool....some lessons, like Kings Mountain, even when learned, are not taken to heart!

[Edward Horton]

Mr. Kepler

My posting was meant as humor, the last time the British were mean to us was in 1812 when the burned Washington DC and I have forgiven them for it.

Please remember some of us really enjoy our “British” Enfield Rifles.

I will assume it was the Irish in you that made you post the photo of the ruptured .303 case from the Enfield that flexed three inches. (Irish fiction and fibbing)

[Peter Laidler]

There are several hallowed words in the English language. A few that I remember from as long ago as I could speak were Spitfire (no, not the Triumph.....), Bren gun and the most hallowed of all.... Lee Enfield.

[Edward Horton]

I believe it was Winston Churchill who once said about the American Mauser collectors in these forums who were always putting down the British Enfield Rifle.

“Never in the field of forum conflict was so much owed by so few to so many”

[John Kepler]

Mr. Kepler

My posting was meant as humor, the last time the British were mean to us was in 1812 when the burned Washington DC and I have forgiven them for it.

Please remember some of us really enjoy our “British” Enfield Rifles.

I will assume it was the Irish in you that made you post the photo of the ruptured .303 case from the Enfield that flexed three inches. (Irish fiction and fibbing)

History lesson: In 1895, Lord Salisbury, the British PM was within hours of asking the Queen for a Declaration of War against the United States....seems he felt "slighted" by President Cleveland and the US Congress endorsing the acceptance of a disputed border between Venezuela and British Guiana that "annoyed" him (the dispute wasn't completely settled until 1899, and relations with Britain were strained the entire time). Cooler heads may have kept Lord Salisbury from going to war with the US....but it was a VERY close-run affair. We may not have been shooting at each other since 1814....but it wasn't all sweetness and light either. It is this incident that prompted Teddy Roosevelt to insist on the US rebuilding the Navy so we could "carry a big stick" the next time the Brits decided we were being "cheeky"!

Simply because I can't agree that the Enfield is God's gift to the shooting world doesn't mean I fail to enjoy them....I simply choose to collect them and shoot something else (it just is not a rifleman's tool)!

FWIW, I have NEVER posted a picture on this or any other forum, and my people were Scots, not Irish.