New member with a question - Lee Speed Carbine: Jameson Raid and other questions

[Jc5]

Ron Bester in his definitive book, "Small Arms of the Anglo-Boer War", writes, among other things, that the arms used by Jameson and his group were most probably BSA&M sporting Lee Metfords with flat-top ribs in the 7100 serial number range.

The men immediately accompanying Jameson had the sporting rifles but the commercial (Long) Lee-Metfords were also used in the operation. Many of them were smuggled into Johannesburg to be used in the uprising that never occurred. These rifles were captured and distributed.

[RobD]

If I recall correctly, the rifles belonging to the Reform Committee are thought to be the commercial version of BSA&M MLM 1* and serial numbers in the 1000 - 2000 range. They were confiscated and re-issued to the ZARPs.

[Wallace66]

jc5,

Invaluable, thanks for your information, it has made my day.

Yes, refer to additional photo's. The action has a G 852 (a small single indent is rear above the 2) Attachment 121169Attachment 121170Attachment 121171Attachment 121172at the rear of the breech and a circle E on the right hand side of the breech.

All matching numbers. Will remove the wood, when time permits and get back to you.

[Wallace66]

jc5,

Invaluable, thanks for your information, it has made my day.

Yes, refer to additional photo's. The action has a G 852 (a small single indent is rear above the 2) at the rear of the breech and a circle E on the right hand side of the breech.

All matching numbers, bolt, breech, barrel. Will remove the wood, when time permits and get back to you.

[smle addict]

jc5/Wallace,

I too have an officers commercial carbine. I picked this up 2 years ago. No indications it was involved in the jameson raid or any south african service. It too has the V within a circle on the right side of the barrel, and the E within a circle on the left. Early carbine with a 3-digit serial number.

On a different note; I also have a MLE Carbine Mk I* produced in 1897. The top of the stock disc is marked 6 over 1899, and below that is B.S.A. Co. Any theories as to what this would indicate? It's not listed in "the broad arrow." It is a military carbine, with military inspections and sold-out-of-service marks. This disc was on the carbine when I purchased it in 1992.

I was never able to identify this marking, and had since forgotten about it, until this thread. Attached are the pics (sight cover is a repro).

[Wallace66]

Strangely Brown,

Yes it is definitely a V in a circle with and E in a circle on the opposite side, refer to additional photo's provided in the thread.

---------- Post added at 04:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:21 PM ----------

smle addict,

6 1899 - month /year of issue from stores
BSA Co - company of manufacture
18 - Rack Number?

[Rowdy]

Interested to see Wallace's trade pattern carbine with the Boer War trophy carvings.
I have a carbine from the same batch but unmodified apart from hard use marks.
It is marked in the usual BSA commercial manner with the serial (475) on the action and barrel (hidden under the wood) and on the rear sight, cocking piece and under the bolt handle.
The butt tang is marked R132 in the same font and the action flat under the bolt is (G)120.
Regards everybody - Rowdy

[Jc5]

I have been researching the encircled V mark for some years, along with the encircled E mark that almost always accompanies it. I have been steadily developing and eliminating various theories. All sorts of collectors and experts have offered their opinions, but I am convinced that (so far) none of them know for certain. I doubt there is anyone left alive who remembers for sure, and the number of men who actually ever knew this information was probably very small. This was a long time ago. I'm sure the very last of these rifles was made prior to WWII. From examining specimens and weighing the various theories, I believe the following to be true:

1) They are not proof marks
2) They are not likely to be government view marks, although I once suspected they might have something to do with government inspection
3) They have nothing to do with Metford or Enfield rifling
4) I have seen at least the V on a .22, though it might have been stamped there on the original .303 barrel before it was converted
5) They do not stand for "Enfield" and "Vickers"

Unless some archival discovery occurs, only time and sufficient collection of data will tell.

Rowdy -- I hope you are well. We are past due for a catch up call.
SMLE addict - I am not sure I sent you a proper reply to the great info you sent me a while ago on your Lee Speeds. My apologies--time just gets away. I will email you.

[RobD]

SMLE addict, I think your stock disc on your carbine reads:
June 1899
British South Africa Company
Inventory or rack number 18

My reasons are
1. At this date, BSA was known as BSA&M Co. It became BSA without the M in 1902.
2. I've not seen a stock disc with the manufacturer's name on it

However, against this theory is that the British South Africa Company is usually (but not always) abbreviated BSAC or BSA Co without punctuation between the initials

In addition, your carbine is very likely to have been made by BSA&M Co, as BSA&M Co made most if not all the long arms destined for South Africa. Could you start a thread on your carbine showing all the markings?

Rob

PS The British South Africa Company actively participated in the South African War which broke out in Oct 1899, and the Crown was actively arming loyal forces in the months preceding the war. A list of British South Africa Company units who fought is here Anglo Boer War - British South Africa Company units

[smle addict]

Thanks for the info, Rob! That certainly helps clarify things. I will start a separate thread when I can dig that carbine out of the safe in the next couple of days.

The carbine is an Enfield manufactured MLE Carbine Mk I. Enfield produced the service carbines for military service, with BSA and LSA producing the "volunteer" patterns. So this one had me scratching my head for years. I continually asked myself, "why would an enfield produed carbine be wearing a stock disc with a BSA manufacture marking?" Of course, I realize this disc may have been swapped in in over the years, but it's been there since I bought it in 1992.

Thanks again