1943 BSA 4T (described as a Maltby) - gunstar UK

[desperatedan]

A 1943 BSA 4T has just popped up for sale in the UK. It's been wrongly described by the dealer as a "Maltby" when you can clearly see M47 and an AD prefix serial number in his photos. It comes with a mismatched scope and the cheek piece was removed sometime in its life but to me the pads look ok (at least not appearing to have been fitted recently!).

Anyway my question is does anyone have any ideas about what looks like "AA 89" that has been overstamped on the "TR" on the butt socket might be all about? Along with the cheek rest having been removed and its holes filled, I was wondering if the rifle was "downgraded" from 4T status to an "ordinary" No.4 at some point. India perhaps?

Thanks.

A few pics from the ad below and the link to the ad is here: MALTBY No 4 Mk1 T Bolt Action .303 Rifles- Gunstar

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[Roger Payne]

Ok, I'll stick my neck out first. I am sure it is the real deal, & the AA89, the black paint (but not suncorite), & the font of the overstamped serial number on the butt socket, all suggest to me that it has seen service in India. I can't recall for sure the precise details, but I think the AA followed by digits is an Indian identifier relating to a regional force. AL is common too (& there are others), & I have owned a few that were so marked. I daresay someone will chip in with more a precise explanation in due course.......I think it has cropped up on here before.

The lack of most of the 'typical' marks associated with a 4T is to be expected on a rifle of earlyish 1943 vintage. It doesn't make it any less genuine, though it is of course a BSA Shirley, not a ROF Maltby.

[desperatedan]

Thanks Roger.

It piqued my interest as it's an early rifle and would probably respond well to a little light restoration. When I first spotted it I was tempted to drop the dealer a line about him wrongly describing it as a Maltby but given the price he's asking I didn't want to get his hopes up that it was within my budget

I did suspect Indian service of some kind hence my question.

[Roger Payne]

Considering it has probably been used by the Indians it looks to have gotten off lightly. It really doesn't look bad, conditionwise. It has also escaped the linishing & conversion to Mk1/2 (T), & as well, has been spared having 'No4 Mk1' really heavily & untidily stamped into the body side wall, as did a lot of those that remained as Mk1 (T)'s. I have an AS prefix rifle that is very similar to the one in question, but which bears the early 'small T' on the body wall.

[Surpmil]

Haven't seen that double staking of the pad screws before; Indian habit Roger?

[mrclark303]

No ishapore screw, that's a rare thing.

The Indians certainly got 'value' for money out of their Enfield purchases, many having been refubished and returned to service numerous times over the decades.

With my anorak firmly on, hood pulled up and train spotting notebook and pen in hand, I've often wondered how many Pakistani made No4's were captured by the Indians and refubished at Ishapore?

[Roger Payne]

Not sure if the double staking is indicative of Indian service as mine has been done just once (qv). I wonder if minor observed variations like this are just down to the practices of individual armourers, gunsmiths...?

You can see odd traces of a similar black paint on mine to that on the rifle in question, as well as the same font in which the serial has been (over) stamped on the butt socket.

I have now seen a few rifles with the same size & style small T on the body wall. For years I thought it was probably the result of a judicious armourer 'making right' by adding the T, & using the stamp he just happened to have to hand. However, & it is all 100% speculation on my part, I now believe that this small T was the standard T applied to the receiver side wall for a very short time during 1943, but was quickly changed to the standard (larger) T. This is simply because of the half a dozen I have owned or seen, or seen photo's of, every single one of them was a 'mid-ish' 1943 BSA rifle with a serial number in the AR/AS/AT range, or thereabouts. I may be quite wrong, but it hangs together so far, pending a better explanation.

Not the cosmetically prettiest of rifles, but a real old workhorse. Sorry for the dust......she doesn't get an airing very often!

[Roy W]

Same dealer is advertising a Savage 4T as well.

https://www.gunstar.co.uk/savage-arm...ifles/1353464#

[Seaforth72]

The Stevens-Savage that Roy W provided a link to (above) appears to be a No. 4 Mk.I* (T. LESS TELESCOPE), possibly serial number 13C8887 (?) with a mismatched bracket (rifle serial number illegible in photos) with 1945 No. 32 Mk. III scope by AK&S OS. 2039 A serial number 23189 made in 1945.

[Roger Payne]

Unfortunately we can't see the butt immediately behind the butt socket tenon on the Savage to see if there was ever a low/early scope serial number.......although if it has a 5 groove barrel it could well be one of those rebarrelled late on.